Serhiy Deyneko: Theoretically, Russian troops can still launch invasion from Crimea
The head of the State Border Service Serhiy Deineko told about this in an interview with RBC-Ukraine.
— Let's start with the hottest event of the last few weeks (the interview was recorded on April 27, — ed.) — the inexplicable buildup of Russian troops near the Ukrainian borders and in the occupied Crimea. According to the General Staff, the aggressor country has withdrawn almost 100 thousand troops to the border. The Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation, on the other hand, claims that the withdrawal of these troops from the borders of Ukraine has already begun. Can you confirm this information? Or, on the contrary, do they stay there?
— The whole of our country really watched with great attention the process of moving units and parts of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in the immediate vicinity of our borders, as well as in the territory of the temporarily occupied Autonomous Republic of Crimea, in the occupied territories of Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
After the announced statement of the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Shoigu that from April 23 they will begin withdrawing troops, indeed, our intelligence observes that this process has partially begun. However, to claim that all troops will be withdrawn, in my opinion, is still too early. We will monitor this process very closely and, of course, inform the public.
— Where exactly has the lead started according to intelligence data?
— At the moment, we see this process in the territory of the temporarily occupied Crimea.
— But there was information and even published photographs of deployed military camps of the Russian Federation near the eastern border of Ukraine, in particular in the Voronezh region. What's going on there?
“As for those field camps in the Voronezh region, we do not see any movement there at the moment.
Do they stay there?
— At the moment, yes.
- It was about the troops in the Voronezh region that there was quite alarming information, in particular, about the overthrow of the Iskander missile installations. According to your data, all the forces and means of the Russian Federation in this direction have not yet been allocated?
— As of now, we do not observe any withdrawal of troops from camps near Voronezh and the city of Boguchar in the Voronezh region.
Do you think it was all from Russia? All this is an accumulation of troops, maneuvers along the border. Was it a banal intimidation, a show of force or a real preparation for some action that was only canceled due to pressure from the world community?
This was another element of hybrid warfare. In my opinion, these exercises were used by the Russian Federation precisely to demonstrate strength to Ukraine, to exert pressure on the military-political leadership of our country and, of course, on our international partners who actively support Ukraine on its path to peace.
Do you think it was just a demonstration? Did Russia not intend to conduct any point, local combat operations?
— It is very difficult to look into the head of the Russian Federation. The real purpose, I think, even he does not understand. But of course, such a number of both military and weapons at any time could get a command and start an armed aggression on the territory of Ukraine.
— According to experts, a strike group of Russian troops, which could conduct offensive operations, was formed on the territory of Crimea. Do you agree with this?
— We can only state the facts about the concentration in one place or another of certain groups of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. We can also see and hear something, but unfortunately we cannot know the strategic intentions of the military-political leadership of the Russian Federation. Purely theoretically, such an opportunity exists, this group can launch an invasion of the territory of Ukraine from the territory of the temporarily occupied Crimea.
— Can it still? For you have pointed out that the withdrawal has just begun in this direction.
— Withdrawal has begun. But before that, there was an increase in those forces that already existed. You understand that it is impossible to simultaneously withdraw so many troops, so many weapons and military equipment.
What about threats from other directions? In particular, from the side of our northern neighbor — Belarus and Transnistria. Was there no buildup of Russian troops?
— There was no critical accumulation there.
How has Ukraine reacted to Russia's actions? For example, has border security been strengthened, perhaps intelligence strengthened?
“In my opinion, all the officials reacted as they should have. The President held talks with international partners. The Office of the President and the Minister of Foreign Affairs were actively involved in this work. Our military, I mean the General Staff of the Armed Forces, carried out their activities. All components of the security and defense forces were engaged in their work. Including the State Fiscal Service, which strengthened border protection both on the border with the Russian Federation and on the border with Belarus.
— I also wanted to ask about the maritime component of protecting the Ukrainian border. During these exercises, Russia transferred an unusually large number of ships to the Black and Azov Seas, for example, the Caspian Flotilla. Do they remain in this region now, or are there provocative actions on their part in the direction of our ships?
— Our maritime security is constantly present in the Azov and Black Seas, our ships and boats go daily to perform tasks at sea. We track all the movements of enemy vessels. We have a system of illumination of the surface situation and technical observation posts.
I would not say that the ship and boat composition of the Caspian Flotilla posed a threat to ships and boats of the maritime guard. I am not ready to say whether this happened in relation to Navy ships, but directly to our shipbuilding, provocations did not occur.
— Russia announced the closure of the approaches to the Kerch Strait for a long time. Does this pose a threat to Ukraine, military plan or economic?
— This is another element of the hybrid war, it is again a show of force by our enemy and a gross violation of the norms of international maritime law by the state of Russia.
— But as far as I understand, they actually banned the passage of foreign warships through the Kerch Strait?
— Yes, military and selectively non-military state vessels.
— That is, there is a danger that the Russian Federation may not miss, for example, a foreign merchant ship that goes to Ukrainian ports?
— I think you heard the speech of the President of the Russian Federation, where he spoke about “asymmetric actions” and that Russia itself will establish “red lines”. Therefore, what can be talked about in general, commenting on the actions of Russia.
— I wonder if Ukraine can respond to these “red lines” of Russia? Do we have enough strength and means to deter the aggressor?
— You see what has been happening in Ukraine since November 2013. If the people of Ukraine wanted to be part of a system called the Russian Federation or the Russian Empire, they would have long ago surrendered to its mercy and would have acted as its holdouts. I am sure that our freedom-loving people will never go for it. We have enough strength. But we need stronger support from our international partners, including strategic ones, this will not hurt Ukraine.
Are you talking about the supply of weapons and military equipment? Or what exactly do you mean by the phrase “more substantial support”?
Support can be both diplomatic and military. The military can be not only in the form of lethal weapons, but also conduct various exercises with the participation of international partners and their instructors.
Yes, they already help us a lot, but now we have a completely different situation than the one Ukraine found itself in in 2014. Then, for example, we clearly understood that Belarus is a neutral state, and now it is in fact completely under the protectorate of the Russian Federation. Then the Crimea was just annexed and there was not such a powerful concentration of military units and units of the Russian Federation as now.
Crimea has been turned into a powerful military base, including a naval one, because we are seeing a significant increase in the ship and boat composition of both the coast guard of the FSB Border Service and the naval fleet of the aggressor country.
Of course, it is impossible to compare the Russian Federation and Ukraine in combat capabilities: we have a different population, a different number of armed forces. But we have the invincible spirit of the Ukrainian people, there is a desire for independence. We are on our land.
You mentioned Belarus. The regime of the self-proclaimed president of this country, Mr. Lukashenko, periodically announces some supplies of weapons, equipment and transportation of “militants” from Ukraine.
I don't even want to comment on that. In my memory, this happened at least three times in the last two years, when Lukashenko personally stated that weapons enter Belarus from the territory of Ukraine illegally. In none of the cases was this information confirmed by anything.
I officially applied to my visa — the Chief Border Commissioner of the Republic of Belarus, and no explanations or facts were given to me. I believe that you do not need to pay attention to it at all. Border protection on the Belarusian section is strengthened, but I do not see any threats there at the moment.
— There has also been a recent incident of violation of our airspace. In mid-March, a Russian helicopter flew to our territory in the Sumy region. Then there was a certain misunderstanding in society why we did not shoot down the aircraft of the aggressor country that violated our border. Explain why, really, we did not react to this violation in any way? Are such cases of the entry of Russian planes and helicopters into our space frequent?
I'll explain it to the audience. First, the helicopter flew to the territory of Ukraine at a distance of about 50 meters, was on our territory for less than a minute. In order to shoot down a helicopter, a portable anti-aircraft missile complex is required. In our country, not all border outfits are equipped with a portable air defense system.
In addition, I would like to look first at those “sofa warriors” who call for the shooting down of such helicopters, and then at their reaction when Russia launches a full-scale open armed aggression in response to “a helicopter that was brutally shot down by the Banderas, which lost its orientation and accidentally flew over 50 meters.”
Secondly, our border with Russia is not demarcated. What if our soldier was wrong? It's quite possible, right? Because there is a human factor and the border, I remind you, is not demarcated. This could have been a provocation to start a war. Who would bear this responsibility? Therefore, we have to be very careful about all our actions.
Every border guard who goes to guard the border, and especially on the Russian site, must have an iron shutter. This is what I constantly tell my subordinates about. Only in the case of 100% conviction that armored vehicles entered the territory of Ukraine, an armed unit of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation entered, only then we use weapons and destroy it. I give you a guarantee that in this case the aggressor will be destroyed.
Regarding the incident with the helicopter, we sent a letter to the Russian border guards, informed the leadership of the Armed Forces, informed all interested ministries and departments. However, Russia's position is always the same — “they were not there” and “this did not happen”. That is, they did not confirm the fact of crossing the border.
— And what do you personally think, was it a provocation or did the helicopter really lose its orientation?
— It's hard to say. Indeed, it could be banal to the human factor, and maybe not.
Are such cases frequent? That is, how often do Russian planes and helicopters “lose their orientation” and violate the airspace of Ukraine?
There was no such incident last year. This year we had one such case in Sumy region and one case in Luhansk region. I note that we observe the airspace together with the units of the Armed Forces.
When did this incident happen?
— Literally three weeks after the incident in Sumy region. Also, the helicopter flew, but small, light. With the help of radar it is difficult to confirm the fact of crossing the border line, although our subordinates claim that it was for sure. And the rhetoric of the Russians is the same - their outfits have not seen anything, they cannot confirm.
— How is the interaction in this matter between border guards and the Armed Forces in practice?
— We visually see the possible fact of crossing and transmit information to them. They are already making decisions.
— And who allows the team to hit the target? Can the border guard make such a decision himself?
— The border guard must report on the recorded fact of violation of airspace.
— And in the future?
- In the future, the decision is no longer made by the senior border guard. Of course, if weapons were used on the border guards, for example, from a helicopter, then the outfit would protect itself and use weapons to destroy.
— It is on the eastern border for the sixth year that the so-called “Wall” project or engineering-technical arrangement of the border with Russia has been under construction. Is it still far from completion?
There is no “Wall” project. This name has been preserved in circulation. Unfortunately, in our society, the project “Wall” is associated only with negative manifestations. When can it be finished? It depends only on us. And from what exactly society wants to see on the border with the aggressor country.
We must understand that there is no such wall that would reliably protect us from it, becoming a kind of sarcophagus from Russian “sparklers” and tanks. There is no such wall. The only wall can be the readiness for self-sacrifice and the courage of our soldiers from the Armed Forces, the National Guard, the State Border Guard Service and all other security and defense forces.
If we talk about the engineering arrangement of the border, then, in my opinion, it should provide 100% control over the state border line. Society should know that from the side of the Russian Federation sabotage and intelligence groups, terrorists, unwanted persons, objects of smuggling will not be able to get to us. That is, in my understanding, and should be a “wall”.
This is exactly the kind of engineering we carry out. We equip an anti-tank ditch, a control and track lane, a rockery road and complete it all with the creation of a video surveillance system. That is, we build towers on which we install video cameras and thermal imagers, which constantly provide control over the state border in 24/7 format.
This is the most effective system that allows you to completely eliminate the human factor. The camera cannot be bribed, it will not fall asleep and will not turn away at the right moment. In my opinion, it is precisely this “wall” that we should strive for if we want to feel protected.
— What part of the border with Russia has yet to be built up like this?
“Last year I saw the news that Estonia wants to engineer its border with the Russian Federation. Let me give you two numbers. The length of the border between Estonia and Russia by land is 135 km, it is planned to spend 130 million euros on its arrangement. That is, the cost of arranging the border is slightly less than 1 million euros per running kilometer.
When the so-called “Wall” project started in our country, it was predicted that its cost would be 4 billion hryvnias. It was then reduced to 2.5 billion. To date, in fact, 2 billion hryvnias have been spent. This year, it is planned to spend 338 million hryvnias. We decided to change the format somewhat, because we want to reduce the cost of work. And now we do some of the work ourselves.
We fought for a year to be allowed to engage in planned types of economic activities and from November 2020 we received the right to manufacture Egoza barbed wire ourselves. Because its cost is very high, and our need for it is very great. We need 450 thousand bays of wire. The cost of one is 6 thousand hryvnias. This is 2.7 billion hryvnias that no one will ever give us. We went the other way — we built a workshop, we will get the equipment and we will manufacture this wire ourselves. We plan that this will reduce its cost at least twice, and if certain patrons come to the meeting, then we hope to be able to reduce the price by 10 times.
— If we still return to the border with the aggressor, how much has it not been equipped yet?
— We are completing work in the Kharkiv region. Part of the work continued in the Chernihiv region. Last year, one site was built in the Luhansk region and design and survey work is being carried out in the Sumy region. Engineering work has not yet begun there. During the entire period of work, about 400 km of anti-tank ditch, 330 km of rockery road, 70 km of barbed wire and 100 km of metal fence have been equipped.
In addition, last year in the Luhansk region on the “Troitske” site was built an ultra-modern video surveillance system, the cameras there work in automatic mode. They have already identified violators of the state border. At this site, the movement of 4 people from the Russian side was recorded, we assessed this as an intention to divert the sabotage and reconnaissance group. Since we informed the Russian border guards about this, we are still waiting for an answer from them.
— How do you communicate with your Russian colleagues? Do they provide any information on their part?
— There is no communication at the level of the central apparatus. Communication remained only at the level of border representatives — commanders of border detachments. They need to exchange information, but without holding personal meetings. They are carried out only in exceptional cases.
Such was the case in December last year in the Sumy area, when the Russian Federation tried to accuse Ukraine of transporting an armed group of individuals to Russian territory. And it seems that one of them has been eliminated. We understand that there was a provocation. I believe that Ukraine has managed to protect itself from this provocation.
We then held a series of border meetings and proved to the Russians that there was nothing. And we were helped in this by the fact that there was, albeit minimally, but an engineerably equipped section of the border. There is no video surveillance, but there is an anti-traffic ditch, a trail lane. We showed the Russians that there were no traces and there was no violation.
There are a lot of rumors about this situation on the border and very little official information. Russian media wrote that this was an attempt by Ukrainian special forces to transfer a DPR militant from Russia to Ukraine. It seems that a shootout broke out on the border between our special forces and FSB officers, during which one Ukrainian was killed.
— Let me not comment on Russian fakes.
— I understand you. Is Ukraine's position such that nothing has happened at all on this section of the border? Do we confirm the fact that a certain person was killed?
— As far as I know, Russia has not yet returned the body of this citizen to the territory of Ukraine. Russia insists on its version, but we proved to them that there was no fact of crossing the border. It's not just our position, it's the truth.
— Do you expect an increase in passenger traffic for the Easter holidays at the border? Are you preparing for this?
— We are waiting. We can already see it in the western part of the border. We see an increase in the queues that exist for entry into Ukraine, in the adjacent territories, in particular in Poland. This is mainly at the checkpoints “Yagodin”, “Rava-Ruska”, “Krakivets” and somewhat along the Hungarian section. We have an increased quantitative composition of border dress changes. Fortunately, customs also resorted to such measures.
Unfortunately, we all understand that there were and will be queues at the border, because the infrastructure is old, new checkpoints have not yet been built, so people have to be in such uncomfortable conditions. In addition, the border crossing is connected both with registration at Ukrainian checkpoints and checkpoints of adjacent countries.
— The question is that there will not be another surge of coronavirus due to these queues and being in cramped rooms.
— Yes. Moreover, people are also trying to fake coronavirus tests. Over the past week, we discovered 48 fake tests. Unfortunately, people neglect the safety of others. I'm not talking about the attitude to one's own health, but what is the fault of the rest of the people living on the territory of Ukraine? You have to respect them too.
Moreover, the passenger flow has fallen significantly, but now it is growing little by little. If before the pandemic, in our average year in the summer or before the holidays, the passenger flow could reach 300-350 thousand people per day, then in April last year we recorded an anti-record - almost 6000 people per day. Now it already has about 60-70 thousand people per day. And there is no sharp increase or sharp decrease in those who want to cross the border.
Just a year ago, borders around the world were closed.
Yes, the whole world was in such conditions. We also closed checkpoints, restricted the crossing of the border, but there was no other way out. If we had not put in place such rigid mechanisms then I think we would have seen what happened in Italy. And we would have seen this a year ago, when in fact the medical system in our country had not yet been restored. Now there is at least something, then there was nothing at all.
- And from the Crimea and from Russia the passenger flow has been falling in recent years?
— From Crimea, it also decreased when the pandemic began. On average, 800-900 people cross the administrative border with Crimea in a day through the checkpoint. From Russia, we do not see an increase in passenger traffic. Sometimes Russia even takes and does not let its citizens out. There are such cases. We do not predict that there will be a critical increase in passenger traffic from Russia for the Easter holidays.
— The idea of introducing COVID passports is currently being discussed. That is, a person will be able to freely leave or enter the country only if he has a special certificate of vaccination. In this regard, various statements from politicians are heard, some call it a violation of human rights and a restriction of the right to free movement. What is your opinion on this?
If someone believes that this is a violation of human rights, they may simply not vaccinate themselves.
But then he will not be able to go anywhere.
— This is another matter. So, he was not needed anywhere. The question is not that a person will not be able to leave, for example, from Ukraine, the question is that he will not be able to get to where he plans to travel. I think this is the world perspective in the coming months, it is still under discussion at the moment.
But steps to introduce vaccination passports are already being developed by many countries. Ukraine is also closely monitoring this trend, taking into account measures to counter the spread of SOVID-19. So if the appropriate decisions are made, then the State Border Service is ready for it. Such documents in general should be seen more as creating collective immunity against coronavirus that can promote safe travel for people.
— I continue to try to cross the Ukrainian-Russian border with amazing persistence artists from the Russian Federation, bloggers, actors, singers who knowingly violated the law by illegally visiting the occupied Crimea, and now want to enter Ukraine. But I'm not interested in their motivation, but the mechanism of how the State Border Guard exposes them. Do you track their creative activities, tours, performances or how?
— You understand, you are also read “behind the edge”, so I will not reveal the whole mechanism. I will say this: we work with all available databases, with all available information, including from open sources. In our desire to block access to Ukraine for such undesirable persons, we spare no time or our eyes. We look at thousands of entries on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. We are doing this very hard and will continue to do so.
— Is it not surprising that these Russian figures, despite the previous experience of their colleagues, continue to come here and try to cross the border? They obviously suspect that they violated Ukrainian law.
Yes, they know they broke it. But they don't know what we know about it.
— Over the past month, the issue of smuggling and the fight against it has been extremely intensified in Ukraine. For the first time in history, this issue was brought to the National Security Council, for the first time sanctions were imposed on “top smugglers”. In addition, the president introduced a bill on the criminalization of smuggling. Such extraordinary events, in your opinion, are what? A rebuke to the border guards that they do not cope with the flow of smuggling?
— And why the reproach towards the State Border Guard Service?
— Yes, I understand that the Customs Service should probably be the first to answer for this, but the border guards are also given the function of monitoring so that there is no smuggling at the border.
We do not observe, we oppose smuggling. As well as customs, SBU, separate units of the National Police. The fight against smuggling requires a comprehensive solution and the participation of a wide range of actors whose competence is the fight against smuggling. The trouble is that in 2012, st. 201 of the Criminal Code (smuggling) was decriminalized and now only administrative responsibility is provided for it.
From year to year, whole groups, entire settlements live at the expense of smuggling and do not seek normal work. Merchandise smuggling outside the checkpoints is now just a side for us. We chase after this box of cigarettes both on land and in the air and even in the water catching these “beaver-pigeon camels”. We even carried out an information campaign together with the EU Advisory Mission EUAM on the negative economic effects on the country from smuggling. It's just trash, there's no other word. And what is the responsibility for them? Just a fine!
I am very glad that the President has introduced this bill and I hope that it will be adopted by the Verkhovna Rada. Because smuggling is a crime against the state, because it undermines the economic security, the image of our country. If it is criminalized, then we will have additional opportunities to counteract this crime.
— There is an opinion that people in these villages in the west of Ukraine are engaged in smuggling forcibly. Because there is no work, there is no income and this box of cigarettes, which they ship abroad, helps them at least somehow to survive. Do you think that criminalization will stop these smuggling flows?
“I'm sorry, but now we have drone flights of smugglers every night, on the Polish border, on the Slovak, Hungarian, Romanian. In addition, a couple of times a week we see flights of small aircraft. If someone thinks that only cigarettes are transported, then he is very mistaken.
Last month, we detained a drone in the Luhansk region with 18 kg of marijuana, which they tried to move from Ukraine to the Russian Federation. That is, first it is smuggling cigarettes, then drugs, and then it can be weapons.
The supply channel is being established, smugglers become so powerful and odious that they begin to corrupt border guards, customs officers, employees of the SBU. Smuggling corrodes the law enforcement structure of the state. I think that when the first 10 smugglers receive real prison sentences, there will be much fewer people willing to do this.
— I would like to return to the decision of the National Security Council. Did the border service provide the Radbez with any information about the so-called “top smugglers” against whom sanctions were imposed? Perhaps you were somehow involved in the preparation of that solution?
— I am not a member of the National Security Council, I can only be invited to separate meetings.
Were you invited to this meeting?
On one of the issues discussed, yes.
— It's just not very clear how this dozen smugglers formed, why some people were included in it and others were not, who made this list?
— I repeat, I am not a member of the National Security Council and it is more correct to ask the Secretary of the Security Council. I saw his comments where he indicated who exactly provided information regarding these individuals.
— He said that it was the SBU, of course. Let's move on to another question. A couple of years ago, the State Border Service had certain problems with staffing and wage levels. So far, have these problems been solved?
— The staff is fully staffed, but not completely. We have military conscripts and at the moment we cannot give them up. If there was a bigger budget, then we could bring in the military under contract. But now our state is in such a state that it cannot afford it financially. But I note that our patrol officers are not sent to the area of the PLO and to strengthen the eastern part of the border.
— The salary level now allows you to attract specialists to the ranks of the Border Service and retain them?
— Every year we recruit about 3 thousand soldiers under contract. Of course, there is an outflow, because someone is disappointed and chooses another profession, someone stays. Currently, the border guard receives a salary slightly lower than that of the same soldier of the Armed Forces. Not critical, but less so. If there is an opportunity to correct the situation, then it would be fair. But at the moment I simply do not see such an opportunity in the state.
At the same time, we are constantly working on the possibility of increasing monetary security for our servicemen, as well as work on solving the housing issue of border guards. Last year, we allocated almost UAH 200 million to pay monetary compensation to servicemen for the purchase of housing. The funds were received by 250 families of duty officers in 15 bodies of the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine.
