Interview of the Minister of Internal Affairs Igor Klimenko for the Ukrainian News
Last week, a scandal broke out in Ukraine over the Russian passport of the wife of the deputy head of the National Police Dmitry Tyshlek, which, according to media reports, is still valid. In their investigation, the journalists note that Tyshlek himself uses real estate and cars of the family of the partner of the head of the Rostov criminal group. Although the Russian passport is not the basis for the dismissal of the official, the public perceived this information ambiguously. Due to the public resonance, the Minister of Internal Affairs Igor Klymenko ordered to conduct an official investigation and remove Tyshlek for the time being from performing his duties.
Ukrainian News spoke with Minister of Internal Affairs Igor Klymenko about this scandal, at what stage is the official investigation, whether it is normal when family members of officials have Russian passports and who should be responsible for this.
In the interview, the minister also said that he was thinking about the “death” of Putin, whether the crime has intensified after a year and a half of the full-scale invasion of the Russian Federation, why domestic violence in the family is becoming a serious problem, what reforms are waiting for the Armed Forces in the near future, whether the law on electroshocks will be appropriate during the military the death penalty and why corruption will not be able to disappear tomorrow.
The information space has recently been shaken by the information that Putin has died. Do you believe in his death?
I head the Ministry of the Interior, not the funeral home. This is the first. And secondly, the Main Directorate of Intelligence should comment on such information. Such information may have the GUR and the relevant special services.
Do you understand for yourself why this is done if it is an information dump?
It is obvious that the people who do it and plan it know what they are doing and clearly calculate the public opinion, the peculiarities of Ukrainians and citizens living in other countries of Europe and the world. We have a hybrid war going on. Not only on the battlefield, but also in the information space. The war of fakes, the war of disinformation. Personally, I pay little attention to such unconfirmed data. We cannot dissipate emotions. Whether Putin dies or not during the war — this information should not distract us in any way. We have to fight for victory. Go to your limits.
Let's talk about the scandalous story that took place with the deputy head of the National Police Dmitry Tyshlek. Did this story surprise you?
When the report came out, I was on a business trip to Lithuania for a meeting with the interior ministers of 6 European countries. When this information came out, I could not immediately look at it and analyze it because I had many meetings. Therefore, when I was finally able to review, we began to collect data, what happened and what issues were raised by journalists. In such situations, there is a certain algorithm of response. We have completely endured it. Appointed an official investigation, determined the personal composition of the commission, which will carry out the appropriate verification activities. Today (October 30, - ed) the commission has already held its first meeting. Tyshlek was suspended from his official duties. Now all authorized persons are studying the issues that were raised in the journalistic investigation.
Is the published information confirmed?
Tyshlek himself submitted an application to the State Bureau of Investigation, in which he asked to thoroughly understand what was stated in the journalistic investigation. Here I totally support him. We need to know the truth of what happened and to what extent the facts that have been presented in the media are objective in relation to this official.
Are the wives of officials subject to verification for the presence of Russian citizenship? Is the availability of passports of the Russian Federation checked for spouses?
When a special inspection takes place, there are two areas of verification: the internal Ministry of Internal Affairs and inspections, which are organized by others, including special services. As for the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the police in this case, the next of kin are checked for criminal records, the presence of real estate, declarations. The materials also contain autobiographical data on the closest relatives, including wives, husbands and children.
The units of the Migration Service provide information on the presence of Ukrainian citizenship, they confirm this citizenship of Ukraine, the border service for the internal security unit provides information on crossing the border and on which passport, on which car or plane. This is our parish and we clearly check everything here.
Regarding the availability of a passport of a particular state, we, as a rule, do not have such information. Information about citizenship, any, Russian, Hungarian, American... should be sent a request to this country, and countries generally do not give such information because it is sensitive personal data. If you contact the United States with a question whether this or that person has citizenship, they are unlikely to answer you. And here we are talking about Russia, with which we have no contact at all. And this must be clearly understood.
After this story, are the wives of other leaders of the National Police checked?
First, there is criminal proceedings in the SBI, there is our official investigation. Already in the framework of official investigations and proceedings, the pre-trial investigation body will provide requests to other services that are authorized to check and have access to such information. When this passport was received, if received, by whom it was issued, if issued. It is necessary to interview in the framework of criminal proceedings all those who appear in it. Therefore, this is a big job, but we will give this opportunity to the SBI investigators, if necessary and the SBU, to establish the truth.
Is the Russian passport a reason for dismissal from office?
De jure, the presence of any passport, including a Russian one, is not a reason for dismissal. Given the moral side, what is happening today during the war with Russia, we should talk about the other side of the coin and about the special interest of our special services in checking a citizen or his relatives if they have passports of the Russian Federation. Where relatives live, what communication is there, how many times he left or did not go to his relatives, whether it is the Russian Federation, whether it is temporarily occupied territories, but this should be done by specialists who have access to this kind of information.
What is the current criminal situation in the country? How much has it changed compared to last year?
We say that approximately total crime has decreased by 15%. But, if we talk about the types of criminal offenses, then we can highlight the trigger crimes that affect the criminogenic situation today and will affect tomorrow.
First of all, this is fraud. Of course, this is domestic violence. Here we mean both administrative and criminal offenses. We are also talking about cyber fraud. We are also seeing an increase in reports related to illicit drug trafficking. By the way, if before the war these were quite expensive drugs that were not available to a large number of the population, today we have a problem with cheap drugs that affect life and health. This is due to the fact that previously quite expensive drugs tried to be transported across all borders of our state and criminal forces were involved in this, so today the borders with the Russian Federation and Belarus are closed, so we are mainly dealing with domestic production of drugs.
What is the current situation with the circulation of weapons?
First, not a single weapon passed through Ukraine's border with all EU countries and Moldova smuggled or uncontrolled. This is the work of the police, SBU and border guards. Moreover, I can say that no ammunition passed through the border either. Sufficiently tight controls on our part and our partners confirm that the border is closed. This concerns the possibility of transportation and transfer of weapons from Ukraine. The entry of weapons with us is normalized, weapons will be imported on the basis of established rules.
And everything that is not within the framework of the rules?
You know that many weapons have entered Ukraine, because we have to fight, to defend our state. There is control by the military. There is a mode of transportation of these weapons, but I am sure that weapons from the border go immediately to the front, because the need for weapons, ammunition is constantly.
As for the general situation, we have already registered a bill on trophy weapons. All trophy weapons must be registered with the police. We, after registration, return this weapon back to the citizens, but we know its number, we know that after the end of hostilities for 90 days, these citizens had to surrender this weapon or register it with the police. I can say that we will have a problem with weapons even after the war, we understand this perfectly. We are now preparing to take control of any possible illegal use of weapons after the war.
How problematic has domestic violence become?
To date, in 9 months we have reached the indicators of 2021. Millions of IDPs, many people who have gone abroad and lost family ties with wives, children, constant anxieties, the problem with having many men at the front. This all leads to the fact that people are very stressed, the control of children is weakened in many families.
Of course, we are talking about our fighters and heroes who are in difficult conditions on the battlefield and will need long-term rehabilitation, including mental rehabilitation during and after the end of the war. We have this problem and talk about it openly. We discussed these issues of combating domestic violence with our foreign colleagues who have relevant experience and problem in overcoming domestic violence.
We currently have little crime for domestic violence. It is more administrative responsibility, that is, these are minor violations of administrative legislation. At the same time, we must be prepared for an increase in such crimes in the country.
We do not sit idly by, we have police officers who are engaged in combating domestic violence. They come to the scene of such a crime or administrative offense. This is a unit that we have been creating since 2015. We teach all police officers to respond appropriately to such cases. This problem exists and we have to discuss it at the state level, which we are doing. The president always asks about various crimes and separately stops precisely on the issue of domestic violence, because this is the social security of our state.
Violence only by men or are there cases of violence by women?
Mostly on the part of men, but there is also on the part of women — at 12%.
What reforms are waiting for the internal affairs bodies in the near future?
It is better not to say reforms, but to restore order in certain departments that provide services to citizens. We definitely do not complete the police reform anyway, but in those areas that are far from the combat zone, we continue to train community police officers. We have been forced to halve the amount of training of such officers, yet this process continues.
We continue in a state of war to reform the work of service services, the Migration Service. We understand the problem not only of speed and quality of service provision, we also talk about the problem of corruption and therefore we have stated that we have zero tolerance for corruption. This is quite difficult to do today. We have changed several laws, introduced responsibility for service workers, changed the rules for preparing and passing exams for driving a car, we are recruiting new managers on a competitive basis. We build system control over the work of departments.
Moreover, the Cabinet of Ministers has adopted at least 20 acts regulating the activities of our services. I am sure that in the coming months we will get the full picture of what we have been able to do in the last 7 months. One thing is that our citizens can prepare at home for passing theoretical exams, there is no need to go to driving schools and pay funds. Of course, we are now doing an analysis of the work of all driving schools. And those driving schools that have abused or abused their powers will be closed.
We will start taking practical exams in the coming weeks in most regions on new cars equipped with video and audio fixation systems in order to minimize any outside influence on the results of the practical exam. The same applies to theoretical exams. Extraneous interference is almost impossible. But I can say that in parallel we organize control over these processes. In the near future, we will introduce a “hotline” for the work of service services by our divisions.
We must clearly understand that the country must be intolerant of any manifestations of corruption, bribery and extortion, so our citizens must also form their own culture of attitude towards corruption.
Please tell us about the idea of DNA selection in people living abroad.
We discussed this issue with the Ministers of Internal Affairs of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Norway and Poland. In the coming weeks, and perhaps days, we will organize an information company for our citizens who have lost contact with their relatives and who are in the territory of other countries, in order for them to come and donate their DNA material for comparison with those bodies that we have in the SME bureau.
Citizens who have found temporary shelter abroad often do not know where to turn for help. They do not have the opportunity, for various reasons, to come to Ukraine and hand over biological material. Therefore, we have already started negotiations with our partners about opening DNA material selection points abroad. I think it will work through a preliminary electronic recording.
How is the process of demining the territory, what are the problems?
The Russians are modernizing their murder weapons. This applies to anti-personnel mines, cluster munitions, so if we compare the beginning of 2022, we were able to deport generally Soviet mines, then at the beginning of 2023 we have a huge number of mines of new modifications that are almost impossible to mine, so we have many cases when our people, children blow themselves up on such mines. These are seismic mines or remote mines that do not self-destruct on their own.
As for demining in general, we understand which territories are currently potentially mined. We employ more than 1100 employees every day. We are preparing new pyrotechnics and explosives technicians so that after the de-occupation we will be able to deport these territories. The problem of demining also lies in the fact that there is no technology for demining. We are talking about mechanical demining machines, mine detectors and so on. Do not forget that it will be necessary to deport many territories of coastal zones, near the sea and here we are waiting for the help of our international partners for specialized catamarans, underwater equipment for mining rivers and seas.
We are well aware that the territory where the fighting is taking place is much more mined than the liberated territory of Kharkiv or Kherson regions. That is, we understand that when we enter the de-occupied territories, we will have 10 times more work there.
How many employees of the internal affairs bodies have been laid off since the beginning of the war? Is there such a trend?
No, we fired only those who did not follow the orders of the leaders. These people are all fired. Of course, there are those who are fired for violations, in particular, service discipline. I can say the opposite, that people are trying to pass this time in order to serve in our units. How many volunteers came to the National Guard, the National Police, the DPSU, the State Emergency Service. There is a lot of work, especially since the police will have the main task of maintaining the criminogenic situation and helping the population if we have long power outages in the country. We are preparing for this very seriously. Therefore, I sincerely believe that the rating of all services that are part of the system of the Ministry of Internal Affairs we must maintain. The system itself is quite resilient and I am proud of every worker who has withstood such pressure since the first days of the war.
Has the influx of those who want to work in the police increased, given that they are not subject to mobilization?
No, it did not increase. We have vacancies. You have to work in the police. Here it is impossible to sit quietly somewhere in the corner. We analyzed and on the contrary, the number of people who entered our universities for the second higher education decreased. Perhaps they are afraid, because we will definitely ask such people why they do not serve in the army, but want to study.
Do you support the idea of police using tasers in detentions? This idea was not implemented before in the Verkhovna Rada, as we remember, but this issue is now being returned in parliament.
This idea deserves discussion in society, professional and professional, including by the people's deputies. The bill is in the Verkhovna Rada. It may need to be corrected, but in connection with the aggressive actions of some of our citizens on the roads or while serving as law enforcement officers, the use of a stun gun will not be fatal. Mortality will be reduced to almost zero than with the use of weapons.
When we issued pump-action shotguns to the community police, the mortality after a shot from a pump gun compared to a combat pistol, the difference was 70%, that is, 30% of the lethality after such a shot. As for shockers, we are talking about an almost minimal probability of death from the action of a shocker.
And are there deaths?
Three years ago, when this idea was discussed, we were talking about people who have some metal elements in their bodies either after operations or because of other physiological characteristics that can lead to death. There were a lot of questions, so I think it's time for society to have its say as well. Positive or negative, but this must be discussed unequivocally, because every citizen is interested in living in a safe country. And of course we have to preserve the lives and health of our people.
Deputies are actually registering quite a lot of different legislative initiatives today, including the legalization of pornography. How do you feel about such an idea?
I think this is the last thing we have to do in wartime, just the last. Our citizens have access to the Internet and they are currently not responsible for viewing relevant content. I always say that if there is demand, then there is supply. This offer on the Internet is quite common. Another thing is child pornography. I think that there should be responsibility for viewing and distributing just such pornography, and quite strict.
Is it appropriate to return the death penalty during war and in principle? What do you think? Is our society not ready for this?
My position as a citizen is that there is nothing more valuable than human life, so I believe that the norms of the Criminal Code that exist are sufficient to ensure that those criminals who transgress the law and commit particularly serious crimes, which are related to murder, for example, spend their whole lives in prison.
We, according to the Criminal Code, have a maximum penalty threshold of either 15 years in prison or life. That is, more than 15 years in prison, except for the alternative of life we do not have. We don't have a middle ground. In your opinion, is there a need to reform the CCU in this regard? For example, in the United States there are different prison terms: and 20 and 30 years in prison. Has such an idea been discussed?
Such an idea was discussed at the stage of amending and adopting the CCU. To date, this idea is not discussed. Perhaps, after the war in connection with socially dangerous crimes in our country, such a question will arise. But, here it is also necessary to clearly talk with lawyers about this gradation. I think after the war we will get to that.
You have already mentioned corruption and that there should be severe punishment for it. Not so long ago, Finance Minister Marchenko said in an interview with journalists that in the past 20 years Ukraine has the lowest level of corruption. Do you share this opinion?
I have been working for 34 years in the system and not only the Ministry of Internal Affairs. What was in the early 2000s and mid-2000s compared to today are two big differences. At that time, no such corruption facts were detected, because: a) there were not so many controlling bodies; b) there was no state policy to reduce corruption.
If in 2001, as a power authority, you asked someone for 50-100 UAH, then no one would have persecuted you, even if there was an application. Today, if there is a statement, then the entire state law enforcement mechanism is activated. There was no such mechanism then.
Today, due to the fact that we do not hide such facts of detection of corruption in our ranks, including, because of this, someone has the impression that corruption has become more. Therefore, I have a question: will we quietly disclose all corruption crimes and not write about it? Will the public think that corruption has become less? For some time, yes, apparently, and then it will still come to the surface, because the citizen goes to local authorities, law enforcement agencies, to court and pays money. They put a condition on him: either you pay or you will wait a long time and will not receive the services that you want to receive. Personal experience is the main indicator.
When a citizen, for example, is stopped on the road for speeding, he is issued a fine on the spot, he pays it and drives on. The whole process is written by a police officer's body camera. The same principle applies throughout the state. Control over actions, selection for positions in law enforcement agencies and local and state authorities and control over their passage of service.
We are moving forward and want to do it very quickly, in 3 years or in 5 years? It will not work out, because there are generations who have lived in a different society and according to different rules, since the beginning of the Independence of the state and here the culture of perception of oneself in the state and the state in itself must be in everyone.
I always give an example when we drive through the territory of our country at a speed of 200 km/h, and when we enter EU countries — 60 km, or 50 km/h according to the restrictions. I'm just talking about it. No one will go, for example, in the Czech Republic to give a bribe, but we want to give and decide something. No one in the Czech authorities will create conditions for a person to offer this bribe. We have it. And therefore, the number of registered and solved crimes that are related to corruption today is going up. Why? Because Ukraine is trying to eradicate this phenomenon even during the war.
Few people remember that people in the 90s bought out factories, steamships, minerals for nothing, and when now they begin to ask questions within the framework of the law, everyone makes square eyes. But it is also stolen from the state or acquired illegally. However, as part of the corruption at that time, they turned a blind eye to it, because there was no control. Then there were unwritten rules. The law wrote one thing, and they did another.
Therefore, with regard to corruption and your question, I can convey the words of the interior ministers of 6 European countries. They all unanimously said that they did not even expect such successes that Ukraine has achieved in recent years, and they feel it and they have the relevant information. And when it comes to joining the EU, they are quite optimistic about our future. We need to call things by their names. Yes, there are cases of corruption. They will be, but for this purpose such structures as the NACP, NABU, SBU, SBI, Ministry of Internal Affairs work. From domestic corruption to corruption at the level of state bodies. Yes, it will be and this work will continue, because in other countries such bodies also work.
You know, when they reformed the police, all the traffic police were expelled and everyone said that there would be horror on the roads. And nothing happened. Yes, there was some kind of break, but until you pull it out hard - you will not achieve your goal. Therefore, I think that the authorities are working quite hard now on the corrupt and I think that we have already made significant progress in the fight against corruption, money laundering. State property must be state property and no one can buy anything for nothing.
But our citizens should also not contribute to this corruption. And when someone asks them to pay some money, for example, as it was for conducting an examination when buying a car, then they should say “no, I will wait a month.” I, in turn, as Minister of the Interior, have to eliminate this corruption risk — we have abolished the examination of cars.
Unnecessary service...
What I am accused of - but there are broken car body numbers. The percentage of broken body numbers was 0.03%. Why should 99.9% suffer because of these several hundred cars?
Moreover, the function and possibility of examination, if I or you do not trust me, remains and in one day this examination is done absolutely calmly. This is what money was made on before. Expertise 30 days, and I need to sell a car today. I went and gave 300-400 UAH to move the queue for today or tomorrow. That's the whole difference.
When we canceled this examination, there were no problems. But we cut off the corruption component. And everyone ran to criticize the minister, saying that now we will be driven by cars. Or cars that carry volunteers for the war. Their examination is also carried out or what? No, there is a war in the country and we must reject these conventions. These conventions are possible after the war, when we will rebuild our state. Thousands of cars that are carried by our volunteers and transferred by our international partners have both Euro2 and Euro3 and Euro4, which are banned in countries already, but for war it is a necessity. It is a matter of the survival of the state.
For more than a week, information “goes” in the information space that it seems that the head of the SBU Vasily Malyuk can change you in office. Heard anything about it?
This information has been going and not only this for quite a long time. About any of us. This, perhaps, is such a cross of all those in power. Do not read such information.
