Natalia Naumenko: Uncontrolled migration from Ukraine is a risk of loss of visa waiver
How migration processes affect the population of our country, why Ukraine remains attractive for refugees and who for the authorities is a portrait of the “ideal labor migrant”, the head of the State Migration Service Natalia Naumenko told in an interview with RBC-Ukraine.
The past 2021 in Europe was associated with the migration crisis caused by the actions of Alexander Lukashenko's regime in Belarus. The world's media flew footage of EU countries — Poland, Lithuania, Latvia — trying their best to keep their borders from real assaults by thousands of refugees. Ukraine did not stand aside from these events. In the fall, the authorities began to urgently strengthen the northern borders in order to counter the “living weapons” from the Belarusian dictator.
We were also touched by the dramatic events in Afghanistan. After the arrival of the Taliban to power, Ukraine decided to accept a certain number of migrants and conducted a secret operation to remove them. At the same time, young citizens of Ukraine continued to emigrate actively last year. They are replaced by cheap labor from poor countries in Africa and Central Asia. About all these processes, RBC-Ukraine spoke with the head of the State Migration Service Natalia Naumenko.
Let's start with the situation that the whole world is discussing. We are talking about the Belarusian “migration crisis” and ways to solve it. In fact, where is Ukraine in these processes? Has our country faced new challenges that it was not ready for? After all, can flows of migrants from Belarus go to Ukraine?
So far, this migration crisis has eluded Ukraine. Although the real geographical position of Ukraine is attractive for laying migration flows, since it is a fairly quick, cheap route from East to West, especially considering the large number of “transparent” borders.
At the same time, it should be noted that the DMS is constantly strengthening its institutional capacity in the direction of combating illegal migration not only from Belarus, and considers it one of the priorities in its activities.
Statistics on detected illegal migrants over the past few years, regardless of the country they are from, are as follows: 2016 — 6,390; 2017 — 9,678; 2018 — 11,194; 2019 — 12,864; 2020 — 4197; 2021 (11 months) — 7426.
In general, we are currently not seeing a significant increase in both legal and illegal migration to Ukraine. The statistics over the past five years speak for themselves.
Is there no growth or fall?
— Over the past few years, the number of foreigners and stateless persons who applied to the DMS departments on the issue of obtaining a temporary or permanent residence permit, immigration permit remains approximately the same.
On the contrary — in general, we can talk about a certain decrease in the number of people who want to obtain a residence permit in Ukraine due to the coronavirus epidemic. As for citizens of the Republic of Belarus, we observe a slight increase in the number of applications to the State Tax Service for obtaining these documents.
The last two years (2020 and 2021) were special for Ukraine, because we had a so-called “moratorium” on the implementation of nationwide measures to monitor and monitor compliance with migration legislation, in particular, to combat illegal migration. In this regard, in 2020 only 4.2 thousand illegal migrants were identified.
Due to the fact that we did not actually have the right to stop them, check them, bring them to administrative responsibility and return them to their countries of origin. Why? Because transport links were effectively blocked.
— You mean blocked because of “covid”?
Yes, because of “covid”. Because of him, countries from time to time blocked both air and land borders. Actually, due to this decision of the Cabinet of Ministers, a “loyal” attitude towards violators of migration legislation was introduced. In some cases, it was a justified step, and in some it was absolutely not.
The quarantine eased from time to time, and we began to notice an abuse of Ukraine's trust. That is, the borders were opened, but people did not leave, they looked for ways of legalization, including illegal ones. Therefore, in 2021, we initiated changes to the decision of the government, the “ban” on conducting the operation “Migrant” was lifted.
When a migrant violator is detained, we see, so to speak, his “history” and, of course, it becomes clear why the person did not leave. We take into account all the existing circumstances and apply a differential approach, because this is allowed by a government decree. If a person has violated migration laws because of “covid”, we take this into account.
At the same time, in just one month of the “Migrant” operation, our service detected about 2.4 thousand migrants who are illegally in Ukraine and cannot explain why they are actually here. Administrative protocols were drawn up regarding them, and this is about 10 million hryvnias of payments to the state budget.
— When exactly was that?
— The practical phase of the studies was conducted from September 1 to October 1, 2021.
Should Ukraine expel all these 2.4 thousand migrants?
- We found them, brought them to administrative responsibility for illegal stay in Ukraine, and then differentiation is already taking place.
Foreigners who had grounds for further stay in Ukraine were given the opportunity to submit documents to extend their stay or to obtain a temporary residence permit, for example. First of all, it concerned those who have family or official employment in Ukraine.
If the foreigner has no grounds for further stay in the state, then a decision is made on his forced return. A person has the opportunity to independently go outside our country, for example, within a month. If she did not leave, then the procedure is as follows: going to court and making a decision on forced expulsion.
I will give some dry figures, which at the same time are a vivid example. During the events, up to 2235 illegal migrants were decided to forcibly return. In relation to 75 foreign offenders on claims of territorial bodies/units of the SMS, administrative courts decided to forcibly expel them.
At the points of temporary stay of foreigners and stateless persons illegally staying in Ukraine, 72 migrants who had an unsettled legal status of stay in Ukraine were placed in order to ensure their identification and subsequent forced expulsion from the state.
972 foreign offenders are banned from entering Ukraine for a period of three and five years. During the events, territorial bodies and units of the State Fiscal Service ensured the execution of 1042 decisions on forced return and 45 decisions on forced expulsion of foreigners and stateless persons from Ukraine.
— If we return to the migration crisis, what actions is Ukraine already taking to prevent problems?
— Regarding the crisis that has arisen on the Polish-Belarusian border, we fully support our colleagues from Poland. We keep in constant contact with them, we know many personally. We understand their feelings and desire to master the situation that has developed.
Poles are generally great patriots who clearly understand that illegal migrants should not be allowed into the country and we must stop speculating that the Belarusian authorities are spreading, urging Poles to “let” migrants further into Europe. Poles perfectly understand that if they let at least someone through the border, then it will be extremely difficult to stop this process in the future.
Ukraine has found itself in a situation where it is necessary to take certain preventive measures. We take into account the experience of Polish colleagues, we model different situations, we calculate the measures that can be taken.
It was for this purpose that the operation “Polissya” was launched, which lasted until the New Year, and possibly beyond. The Ministry of Internal Affairs coordinates all forces and means involved in its implementation. Also in the operation are the forces of the Ministry of Defense and the Security Service of Ukraine. The involvement of so many bodies is due to the need to practice their actions, so to speak — to feel for yourself how it is necessary to act.
Why is it a double risk for us? What does this all mean for Ukraine? I think this is a chance for us to deal with the situation regarding the arrangement of our border. Because, in fact, in many cases there is no demarcation, no fence, no poles. This problem was also noted by the Minister of Internal Affairs when he traveled to the border.
This situation is a chance to draw certain conclusions and real steps from the normal arrangement of the border. Let it be the pillars with “Egoza”, but we will clearly understand where it begins and where it ends, as well as what needs to be done to strengthen it.
Today's situation on the Polish-Belarusian border has made it possible for all the authorities involved to understand how they will act in emergency situations. This is the maximum mobilization of all resources and a check of readiness to overcome any stressful situations.
Secondly, we understand that if theoretically the flow of migrants from Belarus goes to Ukraine, and no matter how many there are — 100, 200, 1000 — then we will have a crazy load on the infrastructure in the country. We, for example, have only three detention points for illegal migrants, where there are approximately 500-600 places. Theoretically, we can increase the capacity to 1 thousand places or deploy temporary camps. But all this is additional funds, an additional burden on infrastructure and on people, who are already small.
In addition, we all understand that the goal of these migrants is not Ukraine, but further movement to European countries. There are certain risks associated with this situation, in particular the risk of loss of visa-free travel due to uncontrolled migration from Ukraine. This is just one of the conditions for suspending the visa waiver.
Ukraine will of course fulfill its commitments and accept migrants as part of readmission, but again there will be questions of their placement, identification and return to the country of origin.
In my opinion, today's situation is an excellent stress test to check the capabilities of all our organs. At the same time, one should not be attached only to this situation — Ukraine, even without taking into account the migration crisis on the Belarusian-Polish border, is an interesting and attractive country for migrants. This must be taken into account and always acted promptly, taking into account rapid changes in migration processes.
- In this context, it should be noted that from the mouths of certain German politicians there are already such exotic ideas as granting Ukraine a certain quota for accepting migrants from Belarus. Your attitude to it?
— In my opinion, on this issue we have seen a sufficiently adequate response from the National Security Council (Secretary of the Security Council Alexei Danilov publicly rejected the proposal of German politicians, - ed.).
I would say tough enough.
That's right, tough. Likewise, the Office of the President and the government correctly assess this situation, because we are not ready to put additional strain on our infrastructure. We ourselves are in a rather vulnerable situation, because, firstly, we have a large number of internally displaced persons — citizens of Ukraine, and secondly, we have the aggression of the Russian Federation.
To accept an additional number of foreign citizens is to receive a large load within the framework of incomprehensible budget financing and the current state of infrastructure. Therefore, I absolutely support the firm position that Ukraine is not only not ready for this, but Ukraine does not need it at all.
We need, given the current demographic crisis, an absolutely clear category of migrants who can replace the flow of workers leaving the country.
— What are these migrants that Ukraine needs? Can you describe their portrait?
- If I fantasize a little, I could describe the “perfect migrant”... It should be an educated person who knows the Ukrainian language and history, or intends to learn them. This is a person who adheres to Ukrainian laws and intends to work in Ukraine, pay taxes here, educate children, that is, integrate into Ukrainian society. In principle, probably every state dreams of such an “ideal migrant”.
— But there are cases when employers try to legally hire workers from abroad, for example, from Uzbekistan, but they do not succeed.
— Unfortunately, almost all states face such a phenomenon as illegal employment of foreigners. Often, in order to reduce their costs, including tax, employers hire foreigners without drawing up the appropriate permits. The state is very strict with violators of the law. Therefore, such illegal employment can lead to, and will eventually lead to, the forced return of foreigners to their country and the imposition of administrative fines on the employer.
The task of the state is to create transparent and clear mechanisms for the legal attraction of foreign labor.
— We had to hear the opinions of employers that we have very strict legislation, and even with a great desire, it is difficult for them to register migrants at work completely within the framework of the law. In particular, he must pay them a sufficiently high salary, help in providing documents for residence and so on. Perhaps it is worth relaxing the legislation?
— It should be said that in the context of this issue, the authority of the service includes the issue of issuing a temporary residence permit for foreigners who have received a work permit. And I want to emphasize that, in my opinion, the procedure for obtaining a residence permit is simple and transparent.
At the same time, the issue of obtaining a work permit and the amount of wages falls within the competence of the State Employment Center and the Ministry of Economy. I am also aware of the draft law registered in the Verkhovna Rada, which is aimed precisely at solving this issue — reducing the mandatory amount of wages.
Now the issue of a “single window” is being intensively discussed so that a person receives a temporary residence permit at the same time as obtaining a work permit. This is correct, since the risks associated with bureaucracy, the corruption component, are significantly reduced. This is a question of evolution, this is the direction we should work in — maximum simplification.
— To finish with the topic of Belarus, I want to ask whether there is a flow of citizens of this country to us, especially after statements by high officials that we are happy to wait for them here and are ready to offer jobs?
— Ukraine unilaterally adopted unprecedented measures to simplify the requirements of legislation on the legal status of foreigners and stateless persons for citizens of the Republic of Belarus.
The decree of the President of Ukraine on some measures to attract entrepreneurs, highly qualified specialists who are citizens of the Republic of Belarus has been issued. Decisions of the Cabinet of Ministers were adopted for its implementation.
Thus, today, citizens of the Republic of Belarus have the right to temporarily stay on the territory of Ukraine 180 days during the year and retain the right to apply for an extension of such stay.
Citizens of the Republic of Belarus who have applied for an immigration permit as highly qualified specialists and workers, the urgent need for which is palpable for the economy of Ukraine, and their close relatives can receive temporary residence permits within 3 working days, which will be exchanged to them until the moment of obtaining an identity permit migration.
However, since during 2021, not all citizens of the Republic of Belarus legally residing in Ukraine were able to resolve the issue of obtaining temporary or permanent residence status, today there is a need to extend the provisions of these resolutions for another year, that is, until 31.12.2022. In view of this, the DMS developed a draft government resolution “On Amendments to Certain Resolutions of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine”, which was supported at the meeting on December 29 last year.
Another hot topic under discussion is the granting of temporary asylum (temporary protection) to Belarusians in Ukraine. Here it should be noted that the forms and grounds for granting foreigners and stateless persons protection in Ukraine are the same for everyone and are clearly defined by the Law of Ukraine “On Refugees and Persons in Need of Additional or Temporary Protection”.
Refugee status and additional protection are granted on an individual basis and only to those who have arrived in Ukraine or are in Ukraine and are unable or unwilling to return to the country of citizenship or the country of previous permanent residence due to the circumstances clearly specified in this law.
Secondly, if we are talking about temporary protection for such persons, then we must also clearly observe the norms of said law. After all, temporary protection is a form of protection, which is an exceptional practical measure limited in time.
In my opinion, now there is no need to introduce temporary protection for Belarusians, since we have enough other tools to ensure normal residence for them in Ukraine. This is my personal point of view, which I conveyed to the deputies, and I seem to have been heard.
— It has been heard that Ukraine is not very active in providing asylum to refugees, even from countries where, obviously, there is war and human rights are violated.
— We constantly work with immigrants from countries in which there is a civil war or certain internal conflicts. In particular, since the beginning of 2021, 546 citizens of Afghanistan, 104 citizens of Belarus, 78 citizens of the Russian Federation, 38 citizens of Syria have applied to the migration authorities with an application for recognition as a refugee or a person in need of additional protection.
During the year, according to the decisions of the DMS, 106 citizens of Afghanistan, 24 citizens of Belarus, 68 citizens of Russia, 58 citizens of Syria were recognized as refugees or persons in need of additional protection. That is, we provide protection to foreigners and stateless persons who need it.
At the same time, I will also give such an example. It is obvious that when Ukraine provides additional protection or refugee status, such a person is protected by Ukraine against the negative manifestations of the persecuting state, and this person, of course, will not return to his country of citizenship or country of previous permanent residence.
But we have had cases where foreigners, for example, Afghans and Syrians, have been given protection, and subsequently recorded the facts that they visit Afghanistan and Syria completely unhindered. This situation leads to the idea that the whole situation around the persecution was artificially staged.
Do you, I understand, check them very carefully?
— Yes, a thorough check is being carried out. But I want to emphasize: we do not cooperate with the government of Belarus or with the authorities of the Russian Federation. Because we are often accused that we cooperate with them and therefore refuse citizens of these countries who have left and apply for protection in Ukraine.
At the same time, those people who are wanted internationally and not for political affairs, but for drugs, murders, economic crimes, as a rule, speculate that they are not given protection in Ukraine. These are, to put it mildly, not the poorest people who have expensive lawyers and other resources. They begin to speculate on the issue of asylum in Ukraine, raise media waves and scandals on the Internet.
At the same time, neither I nor my colleagues hide their heads in the sand and do not seek to close their eyes to the problems that exist. The migration service works in the realities that exist in Ukraine and the difficult economic conditions that have developed. But we are trying to change, to reform, even though it is a difficult and long process.
— In September, there was media activity related to the events in Afghanistan. How many refugees has Ukraine accepted from this country and where have they been placed?
- In fact, there were four or five evacuation flights from Afghanistan with citizens of Ukraine and other countries on board. Citizens of Ukraine passed control at the border without hindrance with their documents. Citizens of other countries, for which consulates, embassies, international organizations applied, after completing the relevant documents, were taken away and settled in a hotel. And then accompanied until the moment of obtaining a visa in the United States or European countries.
The citizens of Afghanistan also came to us. They were family members of Ukrainian citizens or people who simply left because they did not want to stay there. For them, we quickly deployed an observation center on the basis of the point of stay of illegal migrants - to work with these people, to carry out the necessary procedures so that they do not turn into illegal migrants. Mostly these people have applied for refugee status, but this is not a quick process — the procedures are still ongoing.
I cannot say that this was a painless situation for the Migration Service. There were some challenges ahead of us, but I think we coped with them very well despite the 24 on 7 mode.
It should be noted that there were situations when some of the evacuated Afghans tried to illegally cross the border with EU countries. As a person, I understand that anyone always strives to find a better life, but as an official I only see a violation of the law here.
Fortunately, predictions that thousands of people from Afghanistan would flock to Ukraine did not come true. We are currently monitoring the situation in Afghanistan, it is changing dynamically, but we are ready for any scenario. So far, we do not see any super-alarming trends there.
— You say that there is no increase in the number of migrants to Ukraine. At the same time, Kyiv has the impression that there have been many more citizens from Central Asia and the Middle East, for example, in the service sector, taxi service and so on. Maybe it's just tourists, but maybe these people work here illegally. Is this a misleading impression?
— This impression has not only been made by you, but also by us.
Are they working legally or illegally? As a rule, illegal. Ukraine is not unique here — EU countries, USA, Canada and others face similar processes. These are just realities that you need to pay attention to and take steps to resolve the situation.
Illegal employment mostly concerns persons arriving from the CIS countries, for whom the so-called “visa-free entry into Ukraine” operates (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and others).
We are currently cooperating with the State Labor Service of Ukraine to understand how many foreigners are illegally involved in construction, taxi and delivery services.
We communicate with the largest taxi services to find out how they recruit people, what documents they require. We need to understand which countries these migrants come from, how they got here and what they are doing here. I think that in 2022 we will be able to deal with this situation.
There is also a certain problem with foreign students, who also often work illegally. In my opinion, they need to be allowed to work, having legislatively settled this issue. In Europe, for example, foreign students have the right to study and work legally, and there is nothing extraordinary about that.
— Another aspect, in addition to migration policy, to which you are in some way related, is passport and citizenship. President Zelensky introduced a package of bills that will allow Ukrainians to have multiple citizenships. What are your predictions about the prospects for the legalization of multiple citizenship in Ukraine?
What the president has done is great! It has long been necessary to change something in the field of citizenship, because in our legislation there were outdated norms that did not correspond to reality, did not meet the needs of the state. The president's bills are the first powerful step towards resolving many issues in the field of citizenship.
However, in some media there is information that Ukraine legalizing multiple citizenship will have certain negative consequences, and that this is contrary to the Constitution.
In fact, the draft law does not contradict the norms of the Constitution of Ukraine, but on the contrary — its provisions are clearly spelled out in compliance with the constitutional norms. In particular, the current law of Ukraine “On Citizenship of Ukraine” establishes that a citizen of Ukraine who has acquired the citizenship of another state in legal relations with Ukraine is recognized only as a citizen of Ukraine.
So, since 2001, Ukraine has actually established a legislative norm that is “loyal” to the legal relations of the citizen and the state and it does not “guarantee” the state that all those who have acquired Ukrainian citizenship have withdrawn from their previous foreign citizenship.
As a result, we do not know if the person has actually withdrawn his foreign citizenship or if he has a second passport. This can be found out only if a person, living in Ukraine, uses it or crosses the border with this passport, or the fact of dual citizenship is established by the Security Service of Ukraine.
Therefore, in fact, the norms that a person can have two or three or even more passports are already enshrined in the current law. What does the president do? He offers absolutely honestly to any person: you can have several passports, but declare your foreign citizenship and in legal relations with Ukraine you remain exclusively a citizen of our state.
At the same time, certain restrictions will apply to people who have several passports. For example, they will not be able to get into public service, will not get access to state secrets.
The President says that we understand what conditions we live in, and that there are certain countries whose citizenship will have to be renounced by those who want to obtain Ukrainian citizenship. I want to emphasize that citizens of some countries will not be able to obtain a Ukrainian passport as well. Because in the resolution of the Cabinet of Ministers, countries of “migration risk” will be clearly defined, whose citizens will be required to provide obligations and evidence of withdrawal from their citizenship in order to obtain a Ukrainian one.
— What countries will these be?
— This is the aggressor country Russia, as well as those countries that may pose a certain risk to Ukraine. Their list will change over time — according to the results of monitoring the situation by the relevant authorities.
Virtuous people who have multiple passports will be able to declare it. We will finally be able to understand how many such citizens are in Ukraine. This question will come out “from the shadows”, you will not need to constantly walk and look around, think if someone knows about your second passport.
It is also very good for immigrants from Ukraine, for our diaspora. They will be able to build a business in Ukraine on the same terms as citizens of Ukraine, not foreigners. At the same time, there are many safeguards in these bills that make it impossible, for example, to access state secrets to persons with dual citizenship.
I understand that people are afraid of everything new and there will be a lot of speculation on this topic. At the same time, the campaign is just beginning, it will be debatable, but we believe that it will reach the finish line and satisfy absolutely everyone.
— As far as I understand, a person will have the opportunity to voluntarily declare the presence of another citizenship. And if not? What will you do then?
— Yes, everyone will have to declare the presence or absence of foreign citizenship. If you do not declare on time, it is an administrative responsibility. And if the SBU finds this when applying for a public position, this is already a criminal liability.
Our state must take care of national security, so there must be certain safeguards. In general, in my opinion, the presidential bills, the provisions of which are aimed at ensuring national security in the field of citizenship, are well thought out and viable.
How will they check it?.. No one says that the Migration Service has to “scan” a person and say that they have three passports. Special procedures will be prescribed. These will be requests of the Migration Service to the relevant embassies, cooperation with law enforcement agencies, and the work of the Security Service of Ukraine. But I emphasize that there is nothing wrong with the fact that a person will have two, three, four passports, no.
— There is a lot of speculation about how many Ukrainians already have passports of other countries: Hungary, Poland, Israel and others. I understand that you do not have and cannot have such official statistics, but still, according to your understanding, what percentage of such citizens?
— No one has ever kept this statistic and no one can name a number, because these words must be answered. But, of course, there are such cases and they are detected.
— Do you have a global understanding of what to do with Ukrainians who received Russian passports in Crimea and Donbas? Does Ukraine not recognize the fact of obtaining another citizenship?
— The legislation says that we recognize Russian passports issued in Crimea as those issued forcibly. Accordingly, our citizens could not do anything not to get them. I think the time will come and we will work with such a category of people as residents of Crimea and Donetsk and Luhansk regions. It will be a difficult path for everyone, it will be the procedures for identifying the person, determining how the person received the passports. But nothing will change from this: if a person is a citizen of Ukraine, then he is a citizen of Ukraine.
You say there will be identification. That is, you will study whether she really forcibly received Russian citizenship, or voluntarily?
“I think that many services, apart from the Migration Board, will work to understand what happened there. I think that separate procedures will be defined for this.
— Finally, I wanted to ask about a specific public case when a civil servant could have a passport of another state. We are talking about the former Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs Alexander Gogilashvili, who according to Russian records is still a citizen of the Russian Federation. Has our Migration Service carried out a verification of these facts? Do you have confirmation of the Russian passport data of Gogilashvili?
— The migration service, as the owner of certain databases, always stands for the protection of personal data of citizens. We try never to comment on individual cases of people. It does not depend on the last name of the person you named. It's just a matter of principle.
At the same time, I would like to emphasize that in matters relating to the national security of the country, we always closely and extremely promptly cooperate with other law enforcement agencies, and if necessary, they will be provided with any information available to us on this issue.
— That is, you can not say specifically about Gogilashvili. Well, in general, is it possible that a person with a valid Russian passport can be appointed to the post of civil service of Ukraine?
— This should be checked during a special inspection. It must be carried out by the addressee, and this is his responsibility.
Based on the materials of RBK-Ukraine
