Police truth number 1. Mass burials, collaborators, looters and working in conditions of war — a great interview with the head of the National Police
How the war changed the police, what new functions appeared in law enforcement officers and what happened to crime during the war, - the Head of the National Police of Ukraine Igor Klymenko told in an interview with NV.
Next is the full interview
There will be no forgiveness: The National Police, as its head Igor Klymenko says, documented more than 19,000 war crimes committed by Russians during a full-scale war (Photo: Alexander Medvedev/NV)
More than a hundred days have passed since the National Police turned into a multi-armed Shiva. After all, with the onset of a full-scale war, its employees are engaged in a variety of tasks - from the usual maintenance of social order to the evacuation of civilians from the battle zone, the detection of saboteurs and the investigation of war crimes of the Russians.
In a conversation with NV Igor Klimenko, the head of the National Police, tried to outline this vast sea of police work in the war.
— In Ukraine, according to the National Police, there are 1,200 unidentified bodies in the de-occupied territories. Among them are those that were found in mass graves. How does the body identification process take place, why is it so long and complex?
So far, that number is 1,664. And, unfortunately, it is increasing. Large areas of our state were under the temporary occupation of the aggressor, and therefore almost every day, every week, we will receive information, either promptly, or through citizens' appeals to the hotline, about such possible burials. These same citizens then very often act as witnesses, reporting under what circumstances all this could have happened. And accordingly, then a whole group of police officers is already included.
This is at least three investigators, an expert forensic scientist who has to document, compile evidence, package it. This is the forensic expert or the doctor, the morgue worker, where we will then bring the body, and the explosives who must first examine the place of possible burial.
What does this whole group do? We need to examine these bodies first. By the way, this is also done by volunteers who pack the bodies and then take them to the morgue. This procedure is terrible, the procedure of war, which we observed almost every day, for example, in the Kiev region, and took direct part in.
They found the body, lifted it from the ground and carried out an exhumation. And we send to special institutions — morgue or hospital. We open criminal proceedings, and appoint a forensic examination. After that, the forensic examination bureau examines the corpse.
There may be two options. The first: the body can be recognized and we then carry out the corresponding recognition procedure either by relatives or acquaintances. If this is not possible, as often happens, because the bodies lay in the ground for many weeks, or even months, then a decision is made on the appointment of a genetic and molecular examination. And already experts isolate a DNA profile, which is hammered into the corresponding DNA database, and compared with the DNA profiles of close relatives, parents and children.
I am talking about civilians who were buried in the ground and found in graves. In parallel with this, many people were found in basements and cellars.
The police have now opened more than 3.2 thousand criminal proceedings in relation to more than 4.1 thousand missing civilians who are wanted. Recently, we have found 675 of our citizens alive.
Since the beginning of April, the National Police has a hotline telephone, where citizens who have lost contact with their relatives, their acquaintances contact. In total, there were 7000 thousand such appeals - about 3 thousand people who disappeared. We check, of course, every such message.
Why is the number of bodies found growing? Because they find new mass burials?
— Today, the number of mass graves is somewhere up to 20. And this is without cellars, where we found three or four or five dead, without cellars where they were sealed. The largest number of mass graves in Kyiv region is 13. There are 169 civilians buried there. The rest are Kharkiv, Chernihiv and Sumy regions.
Last week in Kyiv region we found another mass grave in which nine people were buried. As a rule, these are our civilian citizens. Most of them received either gunshot or mine blast injuries.
I would like to say about those citizens that we find in the basements. They are either shot or shot and burned. There are a lot of such cases in Kharkiv region. For example, one man, a doctor, was a participant in an anti-terrorist operation — he was shot and then burned by the Russian military. That is, very often we have difficulties with the identification of such persons, because they are simply burned.
— How many crimes have the police documented by the Russian army since the beginning of the full-scale invasion?
— More than 19 thousand Approximately 70% of them are crimes related to violation of the laws and customs of war.
— If you try to divide by qualification, then it is...
— 13 thousand — violation of the laws and customs of war. The encroachment on territorial integrity is about 5 thousand, and collaboration is more than 800 crimes that have been documented. The largest numbers are Kyiv, Luhansk, Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk regions. Then comes Kherson. That is, all currently temporarily occupied or already liberated territories.
- Regarding the suspicions of Russian citizens on these facts... It is mainly about extrajudicial suspicions - that is, you have not detained this Russian so far, but you have identified it. But there are also “real” suspicions — written out by those who have been detained.
— They were all transferred to the SBU, so then it was not our sphere... We initially detained these persons, because in the first weeks of the war there were not enough forces in other law enforcement agencies, - we helped, we all did the same thing. But we detained just 161 personnel of the military of the Russian Federation or their auxiliaries.
In total, we have more than 330 suspects, including in absentia. This is only what the National Police does, because it is the responsibility of the SBU. But this is still in the first month and a half of the war. Now the issue is fully accountable to the SBU.
— How do you identify Russians involved in certain crimes?
— The process is too complicated. We first establish those military units of the Russian Federation that were in the territory of a particular region of our state. We are trying to establish the number of military units, and, of course, those who serve there. We apply a complex of operational-investigative measures aimed at identifying these individuals. These are the cameras that worked in the houses or on the homes of many citizens. We also work with social networks of the Russian Federation, where also in the first months soldiers presented photos with identification: what part, what district, what city, and so on. When the Russian military withdrew, they simply threw many documents on the ground. And, of course, we have satellite images of the stay of this or that military unit.
In parallel, we worked on the already killed Russian servicemen, and established their place of residence and attachment to the relevant military units. From such mosaics we try to make a general picture. And we get it. There is even a program that identifies people by faces, even by part of the face. The probability of coincidence is approximately 70− 75%. This also applies to the dead servicemen of the Russian Federation.
— How many Ukrainian citizens do you suspect of looting?
— We have started more than 17.3 thousand criminal proceedings specifically for property crimes that were committed in wartime conditions. This is about our citizens of Ukraine. You should understand that almost everything is theft: 16.6 thousand. People have taken advantage of the fact that millions are not at home, that cars are left in parking lots. For this category of citizens during martial law, the Klondike is similar. But we have already signed more than 3.6 thousand suspects in the commission of these criminal proceedings. And the work continues.
— How many proceedings are currently pending against those citizens of Ukraine who have crossed over to the side of the enemy?
— 830 criminal proceedings have been opened under the article on treason. 1,355 people for collaboration have already received suspicions so far. And we managed to send 55 such criminal proceedings to the court.
— Who are these people?
— These are those who were in power and those who were deputies of local councils. And former law enforcement officers, it is the former for the most part, who tried, perhaps, to find themselves in this life, and did not think of anything better than to serve the enemy. And there are such people who openly sympathized with the Russian Federation, were waiting for the “Russian measure”. This was due to the propaganda imposed for many years by the Russian media, and some political parties that operated on the territory of our state.
— At some point in social networks there was a lot of information about citizens of Ukraine who adjusted the fire, put up labels. Such actions may qualify — depending on the severity and intent — either as treason or sabotage. In some cases, people who posted videos of the arrivals simply conducted educational conversations. In general, how many such cases are there?
— As for sabotage, this is the responsibility of the SBU, and the police are not investigating such crimes. But we identify and transfer such persons immediately to the SBU. In total, the police exposed 96 sabotage and intelligence groups, detained 866 people on suspicion of sabotage activities, more than 760 of them we handed over to the SBU.
We are talking about those people who tried to apply some labels, and those whom we detained at the site of missile strikes on the territories of our state. We are talking about shooting, and about calling Russian numbers. And, of course, we find such persons at checkpoints very often, checking cars, documents, selectively — phone. And comparing with our databases, what kind of person it is, where does it come from, why it goes and with whom it goes.
— At the same time, the adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs Anton Gerashchenko publicly and repeatedly neglected the explanations that certain things cannot be published. Can such actions qualify as sabotage or treason? Was it worth doing educational work here?
— It is not correct for me to comment on the actions of the adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs.
— But you were engaged in discovering such facts.
— There were thousands of publications — both in telegram channels and in the media. They just paid attention to the public figure. And there are hundreds, thousands of bloggers, tickers who filmed it all. And we just worked with such people, carried out explanatory work.
When was it enough to talk?
If we do not establish a motive, that it was done intentionally.
— Did you have such a conversation with Gerashchenko?
This is not my competence. I think that the Ministry of the Interior did this work with him.
— What is your role in ensuring that war criminals, citizens of the Russian Federation, receive sentences in the International Criminal Court?
— Our main role is thorough, thorough and thorough collection of evidence base of crimes committed by Russians. In order for the Office of the Prosecutor General to be able to collect these materials in the framework of the proceedings and transfer them to international judicial institutions.
— How many of your subordinates have died since February 24?
“I start each day with a summary of the dead or injured police officers. Unfortunately, today I can't voice the exact numbers — I know them, but I can't voice them. But I can say that the National Police keeps an appropriate register where we include all the information about these people. Definitely, all the police consider them heroes who died for the independence of our state. And here the main task of the National Police is to do everything so that their relatives - parents, wives, children - do not need anything, feel constant support not only now, when the wound is still open, but also later. And we should really praise their feat in the ranks of the National Police, because today we are entering a new generation of police officers. This is the first.
Second: there were very different circumstances. There were policemen who were shot by Russian troops as they went on a mission. We have had many deaths in the evacuation of civilians. In some regions, including Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv regions, citizens were evacuated by police and rescuers — under mines, under rocket attacks.
In Mariupol, where thousands and thousands of human tragedies and this wound will always remain on the body of our state, our worker, who lost his wife two years ago and was left with two children, tried to save other children, other people, but died. Unfortunately, the fate of his two children is unknown to us. Or, for example, the policeman we found in the mass grave - one of the 116 dead in Bucha, near the church: he also had gunshot wounds on his body, but even in this pit lay with a service token.
We have lost a lot of police officers. In Borodyanka, our policeman lost everyone, all relatives died: wife, mother, small child, father and brother.
I tell, and I have ants on my skin, because, unfortunately, we have hundreds of these tragedies.
Unfortunately, we understand that these are not the last casualties, because the war continues and our workers are in every place where the fighting takes place.
— Where are the head of the Mariupol patrol police Mykhailo Vershynin and his subordinates who were with him at Azovstal?
— When the relevant people and the relevant services are engaged in the liberation from captivity of our military and police officers, it is not only about Mikhail. I would refrain from commenting.
Are they alive?
We all hope that they are alive.
Do you keep in touch with their families?
— Their leaders maintain contact with the families, practically every day.
When was the last time you received any information from them?
For a while, we had information almost daily. Rather, we contacted one employee who told us what to others. We know which of them was injured, in what condition he was, and how the treatment was. Two weeks before the evacuation, we knew absolutely exactly how many police workers were in the huge plant, and we knew about their condition.
What did they say about the conditions they were in?
Constant bombing. Combat actions. Moving around the territory of the plant. And wounded. Mikhail was also wounded, and worried that the wound would heal. At the time of evacuation, his condition was satisfactory. Another employee was also injured. Fortunately, at the time of the evacuation, his life was not in danger. What is the current state, unfortunately, I can not tell you - I do not have this information.
I can tell you that as brave as these guys are, they held on to the last. I think they are still holding on now. There was no panic in their actions. They clearly understood where they were, who we were fighting against. And they understand clearly why they stayed at this plant and in Mariupol.
Let's talk about those who betrayed the oath. Eight years ago, there were quite a lot of these among the security forces. And now?
— We analyzed the situation in 2014, when almost all law enforcement structures remained on the side of the enemy in the occupied Crimea, when whole units of law enforcement officers in Donetsk and Luhansk regions switched to the side of the enemy.
We have since replaced the personnel of the National Police by 50%. That is, a new generation of people has arrived who know how to serve, know what honor is, know what an oath is, and already know what war is. The single facts you are talking about are really isolated.
— How many such cases have police crossed over to the side of the enemy, or do you suspect them of this?
— We checked about 900 people for possible collaboration.
Are they police officers?
— This is according to our employees. 90% of all the proceedings that exist are the proceedings of the National Police, the internal security unit. That is, we ourselves identify these people and then accompany these proceedings. But I want to point out that some of these people that we are checking, who are already in criminal proceedings today, are former employees of the National Police, as well as police officers until 2014. Therefore, we try to clean our ranks from these people as quickly and efficiently as possible. Those we suspect are pretty hard to check. First we have a conversation with them, then we check on a polygraph, then we check again through our operational channels. Only if we are really sure that this or that person was in no way connected with the occupiers, then we give the opportunity to continue serving in the National Police.
— These 900 people you are checking, are they territorially located?
— Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporozhye and Kherson regions. And, in part, Kharkov.
Among these cases, there are probably already confirmed cases. What exactly did these people do?
— They were offered to head the police or become the head of some police service, or simply serve in the occupation police in a particular region. And such people agreed to this cooperation.
“We have nearly 100 individuals against whom our Homeland Security has assembled an evidence base,” they were informed of the suspicion.
— You dismissed all police officers who remained in the occupied territories, did not arrive at the collection point. It is clear that this is not only about the alleged traitors, but also about people who simply could not leave. But how many have you laid off?
— We released more than 1.5 thousand people, but today this figure is lower, because most of them returned from the temporarily occupied territories, passed the appropriate checks and are already continuing to serve in the National Police.
— Do I understand correctly that if a city is under threat of occupation and Russian troops enter it, you start evacuating police officers?
— Good question. We learned about this evacuation, to be honest, from the first days of the war. First, we remove all civilians. Then, as a rule, the police continue to guard the humanitarian warehouses after that and deliver, as was the case in Severodonetsk, food to citizens who remained in the city and categorically refuse to evacuate (there are quite a lot of them — 15− 20% in each city).
After the evacuation — including the sick from the hospitals — is complete, after the Russian troops have already entered the outskirts of the city, and after the city has been virtually destroyed, we give the evacuation order. Anyone who does not comply with the order must be dismissed.
But there is no order yet...
— They have to be in place. Either all, or that part that the manager has determined.
— I saw a little bit of the work of the prosecutor's office and investigative and operational teams in the Kharkiv region — how they carry out apartment detours. It's hard for me to imagine how many people it takes to get around every house, talk to each person, fix broken windows, collect testimonies. Do you have enough people for all this?
“We have enough people, because we involve the quieter regions of central and western Ukraine in the performance of police functions in other regions. Another thing is that the load on the police, especially the first two months, was colossal. It is no secret that we are prohibited from all holidays, starting from the first day of aggression. And at any time they are ready to go to a particular region to strengthen a particular component of police activity.
Today, the police do not need to inject new forces, we cope with our work. We just change these groups more often in order to relax. There is some fatigue for our employees, but now it is not critical, we try to motivate each police officer as much as possible. This also applies to financial security. And the government, the leadership of our state made the right decision that the stimulation of financial support for each employee of the National Police should be at a decent level.
— Before the large-scale war, salaries were 11−14 thousand UAH. How much do police officers get now?
— The salary in them increased by about three times as much as the martial law.
— Is it about the salary or is it a bonus for martial law?
— Surcharges, of course. Our salary has increased by 10% since January 1. The monetary retention of a police officer, for example, was 13 thousand UAH, it became 14.3 thousand on average. Who had 15 thousand, respectively, increased by 1.5 thousand. Today, our police officers receive a monthly allowance from the state under special conditions of martial law.
— How is the intersection of the functions of police and territorial defense, military? Who, for example, works at checkpoints?
- The division is clear for today, but this division has also gone through some evolutionary path over these months to still expose these boundaries.
At first there was a huge number of checkpoints — 2 thousand, then reduced to 1.5 thousand, now there are several hundred of them left. But at the checkpoints, in addition to police officers, border guards, employees of the SBU, military law and order services, just military, including from territorial defense, work. Therefore, here we have a normal division.
Indeed, we are diverting many police officers to work at checkpoints. But this is due, first of all, to the fact that citizens need to be communicated — police officers must also perform functions at checkpoints, there were a lot of conflicts at the beginning. Now citizens are already adequately treating the work of checkpoints. Some of them already work exclusively at night, curfew.
We increased the patrol of the National Police by one and a half times. First of all, pedestrians who do not just patrol and show presence in one place or another, but also respond to citizens' appeals. This is especially true of those cities that were under temporary occupation of the enemy, and places that are in close proximity to the areas of hostilities.
Also, almost all specialists of the explosion-technical service from all over Ukraine are involved in demining. The load is also large enough. In particular, to dog handlers who have to go after explosives in the housing of citizens. And so on.
The load is situationally greater. But since the start of hostilities, the number of crimes has decreased significantly: by 50%, and for some types of crimes - by 70%. And we freed the policemen a little from performing their direct duties. At that time they were with people: 400 people - in the Kiev metro, several hundred - in Kharkiv. They worked on evacuation. This is our job.
Today, when crime begins to return, unfortunately, there are more police loads.
— Has the country not yet surpassed in terms of crime in terms of pre-war indicators?
Unfortunately, we are definitely going there.
Author: Yaroslava Volvach
