Interview of the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine Igor Klymenko to Censor.net
“IT WAS NOT MINISTER MONASTIRSKY WHO HAD TO DECIDE WHETHER TO FLY OR NOT TO FLY”
— The State Bureau of Investigation reported the suspicion to the officials of the State Emergency Service, because of whose actions the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs died in a plane crash on January 18. You announced the conduct of internal inspections at the State Emergency Service. Are they already over? What exactly was checked?
“We started these inspections immediately after the disaster. A group of specialists was sent to the aviation units of the State Emergency Service. We checked everything from the technical condition of the helicopter fleet to the training of personnel and documentation on the use of this European helicopter fleet. The economic activity of the State Emergency Service is also checked. Huge service, great functionality entrusted to it. Especially now, in wartime.
The purpose of the audit, which we are completing, is to summarize all previous audits, audits of the State Emergency Service. And one of the key theses and one of the key conclusions of this audit will be the role of the leadership of this service in organizing the overall work, in particular the units that provided and provide the flights of the SNS aviation. We are not using it in the same quantity and on such a scale as it was before the large-scale war, and we now have the opportunity to understand quite thoroughly which helicopters were and are in the air fleet of the SNS, what we must do to prevent such tragedies in the future, not only in the Ministry system internal affairs, and in general in the operation of European helicopters.
And when the audit is over, we will already have a complete picture of what mistakes were made at the system level, including those that led to this tragedy.
What can I say now? There are questions about the training of technical personnel, pilots, the use of simulators of this aircraft, the use of fuel, the knowledge of a foreign language — in this case English — by the personnel who serve the helicopters. Because the knowledge of English by pilots should be mandatory when using such technology. This will save huge money on the operation of this transport. Every specialist who is allowed to service and operate this equipment must undergo additional training abroad. Whether in Romania, Germany, or France. That is, we are talking about those countries that are admitted to the maintenance of these helicopters. And those that have the appropriate licenses to train personnel. Therefore, we approached each technician and each pilot individually, as well as everyone who served all these processes at the bureaucratic level.
I will tell you that the Ministry of the Interior has the largest aviation fleet of European helicopters. There are 56 of them. And now we are just completing this aviation operation system. There should be uniform standards, clear rules on how this technique is operated. To be clear: a helicopter, such as that of the French company Airbus, cannot be repaired or operated in the same way as, say, the MI-8 helicopter for the military. Because foreign and domestic military and civilian equipment are a little different. The helicopter that we lost in this aviator is technologically superior to all helicopters of domestic production. The electronic system on such helicopters requires appropriate maintenance and appropriate knowledge in order not to make any mistake.
At present, we are doing everything to ensure that the personnel who serve this park receive appropriate training, the pilots have the opportunity to learn and train on the appropriate simulators. And I will say that during that period the simulator did not work on the basis of one of our educational institutions, documents for it were not received. That is, there was a simulator, and there were no documents for it. Moreover, this simulator did not have an electronic flash drive that was supposed to launch it into use.
Therefore, we are now correcting all the mistakes that were made earlier. And, of course, we must do everything possible and impossible so as not to repeat the same tragedy not only in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but also in the country as a whole.
— Do you fly helicopters now during the war?
No, I only drive by car.
— Did you stop flying after the death of the former head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs?
No, I haven't flown before. I believe that in times of war for officials this is dangerous. There are appropriate security measures that we all have to follow. You probably remember that after the disaster, I banned all air flights. Although the aviation of the State Emergency Service and the Ministry of Internal Affairs works exclusively for the evacuation of seriously injured fighters and we also urgently transport medical personnel from one city to another. Which cities I will not name. This is almost all of Ukraine, with the exception of those areas that are located directly near the front line.
— How did you react when you received information from the SBI about raising suspicions? Did they expect such results of the investigation? I understand that it was not the National Police that investigated, but you probably had some information.
— We cooperated with the investigation and provided all the information that interested the investigating bureau. I really knew some of the information. As for the presentation of suspicions, it did not surprise me. Because I know that some officials made miscalculations in the air transport service system.
— You also said that the simulator did not work. That is, people did not train as they needed to do.
Obviously, not all of them.
— Why were all these audits you speak of not carried out before the aerodrome? Could a service manager do that? Does this require the Minister's instructions?
— The Ministry of the Interior has an aviation unit that is responsible for the organization and coordination of the entire air transport system. The heads of the departments of aviation in the National Guard, the State Border Service, the National Police, the State Emergency Service are already directly responsible for the operation and use of these helicopters. And these people need to know what's going on in their units. Today, our task is to ensure that the operation of the entire fleet of helicopters, which I said about, takes place according to uniform rules. Only this will allow us to avoid such extraordinary events as we had in January.
Are these rules established?
— Yes. We and the National Bureau of Investigation of Aviation Incidents and Civil Aircraft Incidents of the Ministry of Infrastructure cooperate fruitfully. This is quite a lot of work. But today it is quite orderly, I think, in the Ministry of the Interior.
And we will share this experience with all state and non-state bodies that operate such helicopters.
Once again I want to emphasize: if this is a technician, then he must be trained and have the appropriate certificate that allows him to repair, maintain this transport.
If this is a pilot, then there must be requirements for raids. If there are no practical raids now, there should be raids on simulators.
Technical personnel must clearly understand that there are fuselage layouts, and they work with it. Each helicopter must undergo maintenance on a daily basis in accordance with the requirements of operation.
Helicopter costs a lot of money. For example, the one that fell cost about 13.5 million euros. There must be a qualified approach to such a technique.
“You said that during a war you have to observe certain security measures, so you don't fly helicopters. Denis Monastyrsky did not adhere to such measures, did I understand correctly?
— One of those officials who was given the suspicion was just in charge of this question. It was not Minister Monastyrsky who had to make the decision on whether to fly or not to fly. The decision was made by the flight director, the pilot — the crew chief who died, and the head of the aviation management.
Should they have refused him?
— They should have prevented the helicopter from flying.
— Could they have done it?
— Of course.
— Why didn't they do it?
— The investigation and the court will determine how completely their guilt was in what happened.
— Will there be personnel changes according to the results of internal inspections in the State Emergency Service?
— Yes, personnel changes are being prepared according to the results of these inspections. I think that in a week or two these personnel changes will be.
— Will the head of the State Emergency Service retain his position?
— This will show the results of the test.
— The State Emergency Service was not very well equipped with technical means before the war. Suffice it to mention even the ladders that were missing when it came to eliminating fires in high-rise buildings. Did the war change anything? Because the load on them is enormous now, and we see them working at the “arrival” sites, during the evacuation of people. And what is being done to provide technical support for this service?
— Security has improved significantly. We are grateful to our international partners who, since the beginning of the large-scale war, began to help us. This applied to generators, fuel tanks, water tanks and directly fire engines.
At the same time, today for our great country, when we have lost a lot of equipment, including the equipment of the State Emergency Service, when the enemy is constantly shelling our cities, and the houses are not only 9 and 12 floors, but also 30 and 35 floors, the ladders you are talking about are really a problem, they are not enough. Rescuers are more or less equipped with 30-centimeter ladders — they reach the 9th floor. And ladders of 40-70 meters, firstly, are difficult to operate, it is not always possible to get to such a house and deploy equipment. Secondly, such ladders are manufactured only by foreign companies, and their cost is about one million euros or more. Therefore, we are also talking with our manufacturers, maybe one of them will start producing such ladders, and they still offer ladders of 30-35 meters.
In addition, we expect that we will be able to purchase or transfer such ladders to us as material and technical assistance from other countries. This is the safety and life of our citizens.
— Like the safety and life of rescuers.
— Of course. And if you imagine that there is a fire, for example, on the 20th floor, then there is a big problem. The helicopter will not fly, because the building is quite dense. Therefore, our employees, risking their lives and health, enter the entrances and walk up the stairs.
— Or a rocket will fly somewhere — and people need to be taken from a high floor...
— That's right. But I want to add that we have rapid response centers, and climbers work there. This is a kind of special forces for the SNS, they perfectly cope with the tasks facing them.
“I WOULD SAY SO BOLDLY THAT IN 10 YEARS WE HAVE TO EXCHANGE ABOUT 80% OF THE TERRITORY OF OUR STATE”
— One of the tasks facing the SNS is demining. The President emphasizes that Ukraine should exchange its territory not in decades, but in years. Under what conditions can this be done? In your opinion, how many years will it take to demine all territories? Because publicly, various high-ranking officials are called from 25 to 70 years old.
It is very difficult to predict something because there is a war. The mining of the territories of Kyiv, Chernihiv, Sumy regions does not compare with the situation in the Kherson region. And the Kherson region does not compare with the replacement of Zaporizhzhya, Donetsk and part of Kharkiv regions, where the enemy now stands.
As for the currently controlled part of our state, it is quite natural that we will have time to carry out this demining relatively quickly. The condition is a large number of our sappers and Armed Forces, fire technicians of the State Emergency Service, explosives technicians of the National Police. We constantly recruit people to these units, receive special equipment for mining from our international partners. And we continue to bargain every day now.
Everyone involved in demining works in two shifts. One change can be two weeks or a month and a half. That is, some of the people stay in their regions, the other — goes to the area where demining is required.
We receive mechanized demining machines, we already have more than a dozen working. According to calculations, we need about a hundred of them.
Objectively, manufacturers — whether Croatia, Switzerland, Germany, Great Britain, or Canada — cannot produce them quickly enough. Therefore, we place an order and wait. And international partners support us here in making these orders.
As soon as the demining machine arrives, the personnel to work on it undergo training, which lasts two weeks, and we put it to work.
And we also hope for the humanitarian demining of international organizations that will enter the territory of the state to help us.
Of course, we don't want to allow territories to be devalued for 25 or 70 years, because the economy has to work, people have to go back to their homes, work on the land. There must be light, there must be gas.
Therefore, we are doing everything to clearly allocate our demining efforts to priority areas. These are populated areas. And where agricultural work can be carried out safely, we also send our specialists.
Of course, that there is not enough strength, because we have a lot of sappers directly near the front line. Some of those employees who could work in the State Emergency Service or in the police are now serving in the Armed Forces.
Characterizing the density of mines that exist in Zaporizhzhya region, in the southern direction - these are Orikhiv, Gulyaypole, Velyka Novosilka, the Minister of Defense said that there are 5 mines per square meter. But let's not forget that we still have remote mining, which is accumulated by the enemy every day. The complexity of substitution is getting higher and higher every day. There is, for example, sequential mining, when a vehicle runs over or a soldier steps on one mine, and some other number on the line explodes at the same time.
Therefore, there are a lot of factors that will affect the timing of this work.
If there is technical equipment and people who know how to bargain, we will barter quite quickly. I would say so boldly that in 10 years we have to exchange about 80% of the territory of our state.
This is a very optimistic forecast.
“Yes, this is an optimistic forecast, but we can potentially do it given modern technology. Now they are being developed in an experimental version and provided to us with drones that can, flying above the ground, scan it to a depth of one meter. And to give exact coordinates and points where our explosives should work.
We turn to our partners, they usually come to meet us, because the whole world is interested in Ukraine developing and prospering economically. And we are interested in the first place.
I think that the way we learned to work during the war, it is three times faster than it was before. At the same time, we should not chase speed, there must be quality. So that people can go to a safe yard, to a safe apartment and farm machinery to a safe area and carry out field work there.
“Ukrainska Pravda” published a report on the trial of Kherson rescuer Oleksiy Levchenko. It says that he has been working for many years in the State Emergency Service in Kherson. And he remained in service during the full-scale phase of the war, and after the occupation of the city, and after its liberation. The leadership of the regional administration left, people also did not receive any instructions from the central apparatus regarding their departure, withdrawal of equipment, in general any actions, taking into account the situation. Now he is being judged for collaboration. We can assume that such stories will still be. It is unlikely that Alexey is the only one of the rescuers who remained in the area during the occupation and who helped our people by doing their work. Have you read this report?
Yes, I read this article. I agree that we can assume that such cases are not isolated, and this applies not only to the Kherson region. We have an ongoing service audit that concerns not only this case, but also all the actions of the State Emergency Service personnel in the regions in the first weeks and months of a large-scale war.
What about the management at the central level? Why didn't they give directions and get in touch?
We'll find out too. The group has already traveled to Kherson, interviews both employees and heads of the regional Main Directorate of the State Emergency Service, who at that time were in this territory or were leaving Kherson and Kherson region, in order to establish the truth about which teams were arriving at that time.
— When it comes to traitors, they mostly talk publicly about police officers, SBU employees, other representatives of law enforcement agencies. The employees of the State Emergency Service are almost not mentioned, so I would like to understand what really happened to them. How to evaluate the actions of such people? Did they work for the occupiers or still for the Ukrainian people, for the people who were forced to go through the occupation with them?
— Employees of the SNS are not combatants, that is, they are not considered as a warring party. At the same time, you mentioned the National Police. So, the National Police received a command to leave the territory by this or that date. Tough management measures were applied to those who did not come out. Especially to the leaders.
In the State Emergency Service, the situation was a little different. They are without weapons, only with special equipment, and their functions are the elimination of the consequences of emergency events, extinguishing fires, etc.
Therefore, we now have to find out which teams arrived in each region where the evacuation took place, both technicians and emergency personnel. Starting from the head of the State Emergency Service and ending with the head of the regional level. After that, the overall picture of what happened will be clear. That is, it is necessary to calculate how many employees were in the state department of the region at that time, in the staff of the city administration at that time, as well as how many people went and where. If the leader was leaving, he had to give the command to exit to everyone.
On the one hand, this is a very difficult issue, which is not normalized today. It will still have to be normalized after this check. That is, people stayed there to put out the fires. And they didn't help the invaders first of all, they helped our people.
On the other hand, some units lost equipment there. They either burned this technique or it was taken away by the occupiers, and hypothetically we can assume that they are still using it now. Accordingly, there were people who occupied leadership positions even when they removed the flag of Ukraine and touched the flag of Russia. And everyone's guilt will have to be ascertained.
But I wouldn't want it to be a “witch hunt,” I'd like it to be a pretty thorough job in the interests of our state and in the interests of the service.
— Do you have any idea how many employees of this service are left in the occupied territories and what they are doing there?
I only have general figures. What are they doing there? Someone remained to serve with the occupiers, and someone remained just a civilian. We must not forget about those people who had seriously ill relatives there and did not leave because of this. This is one story. But I can say one thing: if someone cooperates with the occupiers, he must answer before the law. Whether it will be a police officer, whether it will be a military officer, or will it be an employee of another law enforcement agency. To those who voluntarily occupy positions in the occupiers, first of all there is the question of why they did not come out.
— They might not have had time.
If there was no team, they might not have had time. This story we are talking about is twofold to some extent. Is he an adult man? Adult. Did he swear an oath? I gave. He knew where he was. The other thing is what was in his head. We don't know that now. Maybe I thought the occupation would be a week — and everyone would leave. Did he have any other thoughts in his head? Did he volunteer to work under the enemy flag? Did he have the same idea who to work for? That is, a lot of reasons can be. And we need to find out for sure what happened there.
— In May, Ukraine fulfilled one of the recommendations of the European Commission, which may bring the start of negotiations on accession to the EU closer, — approved the Comprehensive Strategic Plan for the reform of law and order bodies as part of the security and defense sector of Ukraine for 2023—2027.
This document defines key ideas, and in the future, clear plans for their implementation in specific bodies and changes at the legislative level should be developed. What is the Ministry of Internal Affairs doing in this direction?
— After signing this document by the President, the Prosecutor General held a corresponding meeting, where we distributed, each according to the direction, responsibilities. We are working on a cluster that has been identified by the ministry and the National Police. This is the development of changes in the Criminal and Criminal Procedure Codes in accordance with those crimes, in particular war crimes, that we are currently documenting. Among the priorities is also the fight against drug crime. This is the story not only of the police, but of the entire law enforcement structure. Here we are also talking about weapons, about the investigation of crimes with the use of weapons, about the investigation of fraud proceedings. That is, the conceptual principles on which we will act. But first of all, these are changes to the laws. And then our joint actions — the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Security Service of Ukraine, the State Bureau of Investigation and other law enforcement agencies that will implement this concept.
I think that in September there will already be an intermediate discussion of those tasks that we have all approved, in order to understand at what stage of their implementation we are now.
— Do you want any additional functions for structures whose activities are coordinated by the Ministry?
— Tatyana, we already have so many functions that we would be able to cope with the existing ones qualitatively. In my opinion, today the functions that we have and which have recently increased by 80%, have greatly strengthened our divisions, above all, the professionalism of our employees has increased. And the courage to simply leave Chernivtsi or Transcarpathia for two or three months to the de-occupied Kharkiv and Kherson regions to serve as soon as the enemy was eliminated from there increased courage. This hardens people, they learn and return to their regions by completely different specialists. Their professional level is growing by an order of magnitude.
They communicate more with people, they see more grief, they document dozens of war crimes, they collect physical evidence in conditions where something is flying — either UAVs or missiles.
And everyone feels that we are in a single law enforcement system and law enforcement structure.
“OUR PORTFOLIO OF SECURITY PROJECTS CURRENTLY HAS ABOUT 20 DRAFT LAWS. THEY ARE ALL READY.”
— Russia now judges “Azov” and “Aydarovites” as terrorists, even though they did not commit any terrorist acts, and we are investigating war crimes under Article 438 of the Criminal Code, which refers to violations of the laws and customs of war. Why? Aren't the same rocket attacks on civilian infrastructure acts of terrorism, just like other actions that can be regarded as terrorism against civilians?
First, there is a large-scale war. No matter how anyone calls it. Accordingly, the crimes are recorded precisely in the military. There is a difference between terrorism and terrorism. In conversation, we often use terminology not in its literal sense. But for a legal assessment, this is of great importance. We all want Russia to be held accountable at the international level for all its crimes. Therefore, it is important to correctly qualify all the actions of the enemy. From the point of view of the existing norms of international law, the state cannot commit terrorist acts. But the terror of the civilian population during an open war is already the fixation of a war crime defined by the norms of international law, for which specific officials of an enemy country can be tried.
Secondly, we collect a lot of information about every individual, about every serviceman — from a general to a regular in the Russian army, we investigate the crimes they commit, we establish the guilt of each, and we send the collected materials of their war crimes to the International Criminal Court.
— As far as I know, Interpol is not very willing to look for Russian military personnel, they say, it is not about crimes, but about politics. If they were talking about terrorism, they would not be able to talk about politics.
— They would not accept, even if they qualified as terrorism. And in general, Interpol has shown itself during the war as an organization that does not always meet us, an organization that plays politics, and does not fulfill the functions for which it was founded.
Therefore, through the Office of the Attorney General, we communicate with the International Criminal Court and with other international criminal institutions. We cooperate quite fruitfully on this issue with Europol.
— Do you support the idea of creating a special tribunal that would judge the higher military-political leadership of Russia?
— I believe that everyone is directly or indirectly involved in the war that started in Ukraine, who made the decision to start armed aggression against our state and carried them out, as a result of which our citizens died and continue to die, civilian infrastructure is destroyed, and the existence of our country, its state issues in the first weeks and months were in question, - they must answer before the international tribunal.
— You stated that at the behest of the President of Ukraine, the Ministry of Internal Affairs is preparing a large document, the purpose of which is to form a new security environment in the country. Can you tell us about the key provisions of this document? What does a safe environment mean in practice and what risks do you see in the post-war period?
A safe environment is how we will all live after the war. That is, how safe it will be for us in our country. In a country to which we want to return our citizens from abroad, where our heroes who fought for it at the front will live. In a country where we must ensure the safety of our children in preschool, secondary and higher education institutions. In a country where we have to do everything to make businesses work here, so that the economy recovers. In a country where everyone understands each other, respects each other's rights. And, of course, we will take into account those problems of mental composition that we will all have after the war. Which will be connected with the fear, with the pain that every citizen of Ukraine experiences. And that is why we want security for our citizens in all spheres of activity to have a clear framework. What do we have to do? Declare how we should live. For example, we arrive at the airport or at the railway station. We must pass the appropriate framework, we must be examined for possible explosive objects and weapons, because it is the safety not only of the citizen who passes them, but also of all who will be on that plane or train.
We must clearly understand that after the war, in a period of economic problems that we also expect, criminality will raise its head. And we must be able to quickly detect crimes, counteract most of the crimes that can be committed on the territory of our state. Therefore, we are talking about CCTV cameras, specifically the so-called intelligent cameras that can identify the face of a suspect in the commission of a crime. And in order that after committing, for example, a serious crime, whether it be a robbery or a murder, we could also track the routes of these persons through video surveillance cameras.
We need to talk, as I said, about the safety of our children in schools. So that outsiders do not pass even to the courtyards of educational institutions. To do this, we must not only have a range of technical means, but also we must teach both the teaching staff, parents and children about security measures in society.
A lot of mines under the feet. A lot after the war there will be explosive items, ammunition, and children clearly know where they need to call if they find such an object.
— You said so confidently that the children clearly know. Why did you decide that they knew?
- In order for them to know, together with the Ministry of Education, we create safety classes in each school, where they are explained what mines are, what they look like. For example, the same mina-"petal”, many of which were left by the Russians in the liberated territories.
Let me show you something. Do you have a mobile phone with you?
— Yes.
These are the brochures we give to children. Point the camera to the one pictured here (shows — auto.) QR code. Do you see — is the image of this mine loading? Now it can be used. For example, you put it on the grass — and it spins in 3-D. And children already know that such a mine can be green and lie in green grass. What can not be stepped on such a “petal” and what to do about it.
Our portfolio of security projects currently has about 20 draft laws. They are all ready. Part of it is considered in the committees of the Verkhovna Rada and recommended for consideration in the Chamber, while the other part is still being considered in committees.
They relate to the work of the police, the State Emergency Service and local governments. For example, the issue of video surveillance in settlements. Because it is the safety of our citizens.
The question is, who has access to this information? It should be exclusively under the login. That is, everyone who enters and watches information or downloads it must be identified. So that no one can spontaneously look at this information and pass it on to someone. We want to regulate it clearly.
In the same paradigm, we have aviation security. This is security at airports.
In the same paradigm, the opening of an analytical and situational center of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which will summarize and analyze all the information that enters there during the day. And then will provide appropriate recommendations for law enforcement agencies to predict certain security situations in the state. This will apply to emergency events, road safety, crime levels, fires in ecosystems, etc. It will also concern social moods in the country and some instigators of destabilization from the criminal world, who will try to get their profit from the socio-economic problems that may exist in our country.
We have selected the top 20 analyst workers who will undergo relevant training in the UK in September. These are system analysts who will predict the situation.
We have in the Situation Center representatives of all services who respond to a specific situation. For example, the explosion of the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power plant. We work with the specialists of the State Emergency Service, police officers, employees of the Security Service of Ukraine.
So we will have organized work in the future. This will also apply to the issue of demining territories. We have large electronic maps on which we apply clusters of areas where demining has already been carried out and where we will carry out. This is done in order to calculate the forces and means.
We clearly know where we have this or that mechanized demining vehicle, which broke down after blowing up on a mini. Therefore, we take into account the time when it will be repaired, and we calculate how to continue to use forces and means efficiently.
Another security issue is cyberspace. The number of frauds has increased exponentially. The first is the aggressor state, the second is the places of imprisonment, and the third is our businessmen, who in different regions of our country or abroad are trying to take money from our citizens. First of all, it concerns the sales system. We also oppose it.
This also applies to the fight against drug crime. In particular, online stores that distribute drugs. This year, the number of such stores has increased significantly. We already know these stores and are working fruitfully to document, identify and eliminate them. We want to reach at a systemic level those people who organize such criminal schemes.
The next is safety on the roads. Now it is summer, people have left, we again have an increase in the number of accidents, in particular with serious and tragic consequences. We increased by 50 and resumed the operation of the speed cameras, because speeding is the main factor in most serious accidents today.
We hear our citizens and we want these cameras to have sensors and record the volume of the engine, the increase in noise. In order that if there is a law, the police could legally bring these people to administrative responsibility. The same streetracers, for example. Today we have a lot of appeals from citizens to do something with them, but we cannot, because there is no law and there is no article of the KUPap to issue and write out a fine for these citizens. This applies to both car owners and motorcycle owners.
— Have you calculated how much money is needed to install all these cameras?
We don't buy cameras now. These are cameras, the work of which was suspended at the beginning of the war, without even shooting, they were simply disconnected from the system.
Very often we are told that there is a war, but these cameras can be used by the enemy. I want to assure you that the cameras have a fairly serious information protection system - today one of the best in the country. Moreover, I want to remind you, these are not surveillance cameras, they are motion capture cameras. In a designated area, only the license plate, the front of the car and its brand are fixed in order for the police to write out a fine. Therefore, I consider such accusations to be groundless. These are not CCTV cameras and this is not streaming. These are cameras that record exclusively the car when there is an excess of speed.
— And who should finance smart cameras and what amount is in question?
— We hope to be funded by our international partners as part of the program to rebuild our country. We have already held several negotiations with the Japanese side, with representatives of the European Commission, and with the ambassadors of many countries who will be able to provide us with technical assistance. It's not just cameras and servers, it's the technical support for building this system. We will take into account the European experience, the Israeli security experience, and the American one. We will not install such cameras everywhere, only where it needs to be done from the point of view of law enforcement agencies.
After the war, such chambers should also be in the communities. Communities will be able to buy them on their own, we will only provide technical specifications for integration into the overall system, and the community will decide which camera company they will buy from.
That is, of course, that we do not have the money and now we do not have the right to spend huge amounts of money on a video surveillance system during the war. At the same time, if we are talking about the safety of every citizen, then such cameras should appear on the streets of cities.
Isn't it too early to plan all this? Who knows how long the war will last.
Some countries have been at war for years, decades, and the internal security system is being formed and working.
“You said that the security environment is the environment in which we will live after the war.
But we need to start creating it now. For example, we need to take care of the safety of children now. Mom will not take the child to school or kindergarten if she is not sure that there is a suitable shelter there.
— Shelters have been checked many times, but the issue of both their arrangement and quantity has not yet been resolved. What to do about it?
— They need to be built. At the state level, a set of measures is being carried out to build these shelters. We are not talking about temporary shelters, but about full-fledged bomb shelters. There should be a ventilation system, a sewage system, a water supply and purification system. This is quite a lot of money. I hope that our international partners will help us cope with this task, because the construction of one such large shelter can cost several million hryvnias.
It is about unifying the cost of building one square meter of such shelters at the request of the President. So that our construction companies can already start their construction.
You see, we are talking about money again. We're talking about cameras — it's big money. We are talking about shelter - it is also a big money. Because it is a whole security infrastructure that should be operational in the coming months and years. Some will be extended for three to five years, and some infrastructure, the same CCTV cameras and shelters, should already be working.
The Ministry of the Interior is responsible for controlling access to these shelters. But at the same time we are responsible for schoolchildren. Let me give you an example: every parent understands that when a child goes down to a shelter under a kindergarten or under a school, he must be safe. That is, except for children and teachers, there should be no one there.
- Now everyone is allowed into school shelters.
- Here the criteria must be clearly defined that the time while the child is in school or kindergarten is the time of school hours, and this shelter is not for everyone. It becomes a shelter for everyone after the official completion of the working day of the educational institution. Because anyone can come in, spray, for example, tear gas. Anyone can enter, for example, God forbid, with an explosive object. Anyone can go with a dog, but we must take into account the psychological state, emotional state, physical condition of our children. We have to speak clearly about it, because every parent thinks about it and then does not let the children go to school.
Therefore, today we are talking about three categories of regions of our country. Directly where the fighting takes place and the most shelling takes place. I want to say that civilian infrastructure is being shelled on average 180 times every day. These are Chernihiv, Sumy, Kharkiv, Donetsk, Kherson, Nikolaev, Zaporizhia regions.
Parents want their children to go to school, but we do not have the infrastructure so that 100% of children living in the same Zaporozhye are behind desks. The second category is areas close to the combat zone, which are also periodically shelled. And the third category is the one that is least fired by rockets.
The Belarusian border is the area where we also worry about our children the most, because from there shaheeds can fly, there can be rocket launches, so we should clearly grade where these shelters should be built in the first place. For example, we perfectly understand that in the Kherson region, children will not go to school in the near future in those areas that are shelling several times a day.
And where there is no evacuation, children should be provided with basic conditions. Internet, for example, so that they are in classes or online.
“UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT TO HOLD ELECTIONS IN THE COUNTRY. LET'S END THE WAR, THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT ELECTIONS.”
— I want to ask about your possible resignation, because now there is a lot of talk about a possible change of government in the fall. They are even periodically published with reference to the sources of the names of likely candidates for the posts of prime minister and ministers. Can you comment on such rumors? How much do they correspond to reality?
I will tell you this: do not believe the rumors. Look at the work, the efficiency of each department, in particular the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
“When discussing this information, some sources told me that you are not liked in the Office of the President. Others, on the contrary, say that you can replace Mr. Tatarov as deputy head of the Office of the President.
“In the last two weeks, I have been in ten positions, if you believe the Telegram channels and social networks. But I can't be in ten positions. I try not to react to such things at all.
— Under what conditions are you ready to resign on your own?
— By decision of the President and Prime Minister. On the first day of my appointment, I received instructions from the President to eradicate corruption in all services of the Ministry of the Interior. And we do it.
There are people with whom we have almost said goodbye, with whom we still have to say goodbye. Of course, these people are unhappy that they may have been denied access to some goods.
Paraphrasing a famous proverb, I say this: the fish should not rot from the head. The chairman must be the first to give up these “benefits” that may have once been in the Ministry of the Interior. It is very difficult to rebuild something or build something on an old foundation that has already rotted. It is very difficult to recruit people who are like-minded, who do not live one day, who understand that our country will face a huge number of problems. First of all, socio-economic and security within the state. For example, who knows what a main service center or a regional service center is? But 99% of the population knows what MREO is. So, GSC and MREO at the beginning of my career were one and the same. And of course, people who were in positions, first in the State Automobile Inspectorate, and then transferred to another unit under a different name, but with the same functions and capabilities, will be dissatisfied with what is happening.
It is up to the people to determine how effective the government is. Yes, today there is really a lack of funds, what to do about it? How to fill the budget? The country is still defending itself from the enemy in war. A thousand kilometers of active front. This is both defense and offensive action. All this must be ensured. Every fighter must receive a salary, uniform, ammunition, ammunition, and, of course, this fighter must be moved along the front line. This is transport, medical provision, and this logistics complex is large. That's tens of billions of dollars.
Let me repeat: it is the people who determine the effectiveness. But I would like to warn everyone against couch experts assessing what is happening at the front without being there for a single hour. Our experts assess the state of the economy without understanding what is happening. Those strikes on the industry, critical infrastructure are billions of hryvnias in losses. And while the war goes on, we just have to work. It does not matter who is in a particular position, there must be an effective person who understands what we face today and what we will face tomorrow.
Do you consider yourself such a person?
I think I'm still in my place.
— Will you strengthen any measures at the borders in connection with the construction of a security environment? We don't know who will be there when the war is over.
“First, these are sabotage groups, these are drones and a military threat that will not disappear after the end of the war. More than two thousand kilometers of border with Belarus and Russia.
Some parts of the border are difficult enough to protect them. Therefore, we are talking here not only about the physical presence of border guards and military, but also about technical means that will make it impossible to illegally cross our border not only from the territory of Russia and Belarus, but also from the territory of other countries, or the entry of illegal immigrants into the territory of the European Union and Moldova. This includes smugglers and other criminals.
Today, along the Belarusian border, we have increased the number of border guards to the number that will allow, together with the military, to provide effective defense, if necessary, and protect our borders. As for the western border, we are talking about a system of technical protection and surveillance in order to minimize the passage across the border with EU countries of citizens trying to avoid conscription and mobilization. Those cases where persons illegally cross the border into the territory of Romania, Hungary or Slovakia, according to the law of these countries, they are not returned to us. They are already refugees suffering from war. Therefore, on the western border, we also have to keep a huge number of our personnel. Including border guards who come on rotation from the front, in particular for coordination. In order to protect the western borders as well. Because weapons can be transported across our borders and smuggled. Smugglers at one time switched from cigarettes and alcohol to sending people across the border. To “transfer” a person across the border costs about 5-7-12 thousand dollars. This is a huge expense and less risk than with cigarettes or alcohol.
— Poland warned of the unstable situation on the border with Belarus, which threatens the integrity and security of the Alliance and the EU. In Latvia, border guards are mobilized due to the threat from Belarus. And how do you assess the situation on the border with Belarus?
Our agents are in control of the situation. But the number of personnel that is there today, in our opinion, does not allow us to speak about the seriousness of the threat of invasion of the territory of our state. We have enough forces there to stop and repel any violation of the border by both military and non-military formations. I can say with responsibility that at this stage that is exactly the case.
— The initiative of deputies on the decriminalization of pornography caused a rather negative reaction in social networks. People write that this is not a priority problem during the war. How do you rate this initiative? Because it will directly relate to cyberpolice. Perhaps this will give her more opportunity to work on security rather than waste time tracking pornography?
“At the moment, the cyberpolice and the criminal police do not sit and calculate who distributes pornography, who has entered the porn site. Police efforts are now aimed at bringing to justice those who distribute child pornography. To expose pedophiles operating in the network. We are working with this contingent and will continue to work.
In general, in my opinion, during the war, the decriminalization of pornography is not our most important task.
Many have forgotten how many of us die every day in war and receive serious injuries and how we hold the front in general. That is, the whole country is hard, but it endures. As the president said, we are all tired, but we know that, except us, no one will stop the enemy. If it was possible to stop the enemy by changing people in positions or decriminalizing one or another article of the Criminal Code, we would probably have done it a long time ago or the president would have done it. Therefore, I believe that the dozens and hundreds of bills that are in the Verkhovna Rada are much more important for the functioning of the state and the security and defense sector than the questions that you have raised and that are put on the network.
In general, do you support decriminalization?
I haven't read the bill itself. If I ever have the time, I will definitely read it.
Are elections possible now, in the face of war? Because at the end of July, Ruslan Stefanchuk stated that “there is no constitutional ban on holding elections during martial law.” He later said that elections should be held after the war, during the war it is dangerous. And what do you think? Will you be able to ensure the law and conditions for holding elections during war?
“In my opinion, under such conditions it will be very difficult to hold elections in the country. There is indeed a state of war, there is a war, here we will end the war, then we will talk about elections.
“THE HEAD OF THE DNDEKC IS SUSPENDED FROM THE PERFORMANCE OF OFFICIAL DUTIES”
“The Guard of the Offensive” was widely advertised. But now some of the fighters say that behind this media mask there are many unsolved problems. In particular, equipment. Why did this happen?
— I can say that, firstly, all the brigades of the “advance guard” are at the front. Secondly, we have tried and are trying in the current war conditions to minimize our losses. First of all, human, in weapons and technology. Of course, weapons and equipment are very often lacking in sufficient quantities, as this is required by staffing. At the same time, today, I believe that our units are equipped with the weapons that enable them to actively engage in combat. It is clear that if the amount of material and technical assistance from partner countries is reduced, we will have serious problems, in particular with artillery, for example, with combat equipment.
— Are these brigades equipped with modern Western equipment?
— These are small arms, artillery, mortars. This is all, as a rule, half the production of 20-30 years ago. Moreover, it is worth noting that our fighters have learned to fight on any technique and shoot from any weapon. In addition, we are talking about logistics. It's nice, for example, to take this phone in your hands. And where are we going to repair it? Perhaps it is worth taking, for example, not such a modern phone, but which we can repair right on the spot.
Maybe not a very good example, but here's what I mean: we take our tank 200, 100 kilometers away or to a transport and repair shop 20 kilometers from the front line, and there we can repair. But the logistics and repair of individual Western equipment today are somewhat complicated. Sometimes it is necessary to carry it for 300, 500 or 1000 kilometers.
UAVs are mostly all Western, and the form is of high quality, and nutrition. As for technology, we were given not only, for example, “Bradley”, we were given T-64 tanks, T-72 tanks. Moreover, our Western partners gave not only equipment released 20 years ago, but also equipment that was in warehouses. We take everything because we have to protect our country. Any equipment, weapons, ammunition must go against the enemy.
— How do you generally assess the success of the “Offensive Guard”, given that professional law enforcement officers, border guards or guards went there, but not military. They were still on the third line, and now on the first.
— They were on the second line, some on the third were preparing. Yes, today they are all on the front line. Our units of the National Guard and Border Service, the National Police carry out effective assault measures together with the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
You know, while the assault brigade “Fury” has not yet entered the combat zone, they said, like, well, what can the police do there? Now the attitude has changed. Now there is respect for both the police and the border guards that we have in the east now. That is, to non-professional military. There is an exchange of information, covering the flanks, joint work.
The most important thing is that these people came voluntarily, that they, risking their lives, go into battle every day. And I will say this: as the Minister of the Interior, I am not ashamed of our volunteers who have gone to fight.
Today we have several police officers killed in one of the directions. I want to express my condolences to the relatives of the dead. Employees of units of Kiev region died heroically while performing a combat task. Reconnaissance officers.
Unfortunately, this is war, there are lancets that unfortunately fall, there is a barrage of enemy fire that covers our fighters. We destroy their equipment, destroy many and live forces of the enemy. But any war involves, unfortunately, such casualties. I am often asked the question: “Was the advance guard created to disperse the demonstration?” I explain that, of course, no. These are the people who defend the state and liberate our territories.
Unfortunately, we are losing people. We replenish our units and lose again. Our people who will return from the front after the war will be the same fighters, our heroes, our pride, as all the military. And, of course, they must receive proper social protection, treatment, rehabilitation.
— In an interview with Radio Svoboda, you said that after the war the brigades of the “Guard of the Offensive” will be disbanded. But for some time it will remain working in the de-occupied territories of Donbas and Crimea when we liberate them. How do you see her work there, for what time frame?
— Until the full establishment of Ukrainian state power in these territories. There will be no Armed Forces in the de-occupied territories, there will be units of the National Guard, the border service and the police. These people, who have experience in hostilities, should perform the functions of stabilizing the situation in these territories and upholding the law in these territories.
— The Ministry of Reintegration of the Temporarily Occupied Territories stated that the notice of liquidation of the position of the Commissioner for Persons Missing in Special Circumstances is not true.
At the same time, the Ministry of Reintegration notes that an interdepartmental meeting was held, during which the issue of the transfer of the functionality regarding missing persons from the Ministry of Reintegration to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Defense and the Coordination Headquarters on the Treatment of Prisoners of War was considered. What functions are planned to transfer to the Ministry of Internal Affairs?
— Maintaining a register of persons who have disappeared under special conditions. Full. In fact, this registry was created by the Ministry of Internal Affairs. We also fill it. But the Commissioner was prescribed the verification function. That is, our specialists kill people who are missing in criminal proceedings, and the Commissioner should put a tick on the final entry in the register. This greatly hinders the work. Because it is not done as quickly as we would like.
In addition, the telephone number for consultations is also in the Commissioner. Recently, a story criticizing the Ministry of Internal Affairs appeared on television. People could not be reached for information about the status of consideration of the application. But the call center is not in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Therefore, so that there are no explanations, so as not to confuse citizens who are already in search of their relatives, we decided to close the whole process to us. Both the call center and verification in the register of missing persons under special circumstances should be in the single area of responsibility. The Ministry of Internal Affairs takes it upon itself. We will also have our own representatives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, who will work in the regions and will communicate with the relatives of our missing fighters.
— The SBI launched an investigation into the explosion on the territory of the State Research Expert Forensic Center of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, as a result of which 4 employees of the expert institution were killed. Is the Ministry of Internal Affairs conducting an internal investigation into what happened? Were any materials or items sent to the Center for examination in criminal proceedings damaged during the explosion and fire?
The internal audit is ongoing, of course. The head of the DNDEKC is suspended from the performance of official duties. Our employees died. It is necessary to accurately understand the situation. First of all, so that this does not happen again. The explosion and subsequent fire occurred in a warehouse. In that warehouse there was humanitarian aid, a lot of plastic. In particular, and special tubes for the collection of biological samples. There were no items of interest in other criminal proceedings. To put it simply, no physical evidence was burned.
According to the materials of the publication “Censor.net”
